[MichiganGolden18]

Just curious then what people refer to as golden retrievers with white color coats? Not golden retrievers?

Golden Retrievers are known to possess a wide range of colors from a very pale gold / white to a dark amber. Though "gold" is the primary coloring for this breed.

I don't see anything wrong with having a preference from a responsible breeder (i.e. Eden Kennels or Kyon Kennels). As long as the dogs are responsibly breed (and have OFAs/genetic testing ) + an owner is responsible about diet, vet visits, teeth cleaning, exercise, and visiting an eye doctor once older + a whole lot more, I see no fault in breeders who have goldens towards one end of the spectrum.

Yet at the end of the day, these dogs are true companions and a superb breed regardless of color. I don't think (at least from my perspective) color is a disqualifier. Bad breeding is! Just my two cents...

 

[Megora]

 

[Emmdenn]

Goldens aren’t truly white. Various shades of gold. Both of my dogs are light gold, though my boy is registered as “golden”. You can see that the are majority light golden with darker gold points, and will continue to darken as they age. Reputable breeders of European type Goldens won’t use the term “English cream” and will refer to their dogs as light good. The breeders who call their Goldens “white Goldens” just don’t know the standard and are incorrectly calling their dogs white, when in actuality it’s a pale shade of gold. Nothing wrong with having preference!

(you can see that against the white snow, it’s clear these aren’t white dogs)

 

[Megora]

The breeders who call their Goldens “white Goldens” just don’t know the standard and are incorrectly calling their dogs white, when in actuality it’s a pale shade of gold. Nothing wrong with having preference!

Many of them are also deliberately breeding dogs who are outside breed standard though when breeding dogs who are not exactly a shade of gold. I know the "compare to snow" or "compare to a piece of paper" excuses, but have seen dogs in person who look more like setters or pyrs than goldens because of coloring.

If you see a pyr or a setter - and they are not the same shade of white as snow or a piece of white paper, do you call them golden?

 

[Hildae]

Just curious then what people refer to as golden retrievers with white color coats? Not golden retrievers?

Golden Retrievers are known to possess a wide range of colors from a very pale gold / white to a dark amber. Though "gold" is the primary coloring for this breed.

I don't see anything wrong with having a preference from a responsible breeder (i.e. Eden Kennels or Kyon Kennels). As long as the dogs are responsibly breed (and have OFAs/genetic testing ) + an owner is responsible about diet, vet visits, teeth cleaning, exercise, and visiting an eye doctor once older + a whole lot more, I see no fault in breeders who have goldens towards one end of the spectrum.

Megora's post really says it. I was a bit confused when I came here as to the tensions over color too. Mostly because I had never been exposed to a poorly bred, not to standard Golden before. I learned a lot about what is out there from this forum.
The standard is there for a reason. If you look at other breeds, you will see that when people start pursuing a color, the breed often starts to suffer. Aussies suffer because people want Merle and will do unethical double Merle breedings, and it's started to happen more and more in Border Collies too. Labs have suffered from color pursuits too, bring up a Silver lab in a room full of Lab people and see what happens there. There are some awful color things happening with bulldogs too that has the breeders upset too, understandably.
Sadly with Goldens, the latest "fad" that seems to be going around is people wanting "english cream" dogs. People are trying to breed for a color now, and often not health, not the standard. I see people on FB posting every day with their "EC" golden that is so far out of standard it isn't even funny, weighing 90lbs and a female 24.5" tall looking more like a Pyrenes etc. That isn't a what a Golden is supposed to be. If you love Goldens, love them for they are supposed to be per the standard. (In truth, at their outset they were almost all what is called "dark gold" and these days people are so familiar with the blond gold shade that they now accuse dark gold dogs of being mixed with Irish Setters!) They truly are the best dogs and I cringe to think that they'll end up ruined by so many unethical breeders out there seeking to line their pockets by selling badly bred "white dogs" to people.

There is nothing wrong with having a liking for a certain shade, so long as it's is a shade that meets the GR standard. My 2 goldens are very different. I have a 3 and 9 (from your photo). I didn't pick either of them based on color. They are very different from each other, and they are both the BEST dogs and I love them so much, I don't even think for a second about their color.

 

[Emmdenn]

Color fads will always be a thing. This isn’t new. Woman I worked with was telling me “well I have a RED golden, reds are smaller and they’re more agile than the big fluffy ones”. As we all know red is also an unacceptable shade too.

The bottom line is that reputable breeders don’t breed for color. European pedigrees tend to be more medium to light shades of gold. I was literally standing next to two Irish red & whites at a show today with my girl who is light gold. There would be absolutely no question that she’s a light colored golden, and they were Irish red and whites. You look at shows in Europe and in Canada.....Goldens of all shades, light gold included, do very well, color does not determine the quality of the dog. And BTW my Canadian friends involved in Goldens think it’s absolutely nuts how hung up on color people are in the states. Seriously.
It is absolutely asinine to claim color has anything to do with the quality of the dog. Either you have a nice dog, or you don’t.

I’ve seen FAR more poorly bred dogs in my area that are varying shades of gold to even dark red than I do poor quality light colored dogs. That’s not to say that I haven’t been absolutely awful light colored dogs either, because I have, but the whole color debate is just so silly to me. It’s old. People who cry and complain about color constantly just perplex me, who gives a hoot if someone prefers deep red dogs or light gold dogs. If a breeder is breeding reputably and also happens to produce a dog leaning to the “too pale” or “too deep” end of the color spectrum, who cares? Like seriously, why do we care so much? I’d rather an utterly correct light colored dog than a medium gold dog with a weak front. This photo clearly shows the range of shades of gold, as well as two different breeds demonstrating the incorrect ends of the color spectrum.You really can’t see the difference between a pure white sammy and the light golden next to it???

People will continue to produce deep red dogs and extremely pale dogs because a lot of people like them. Doesn’t mean it’s correct, also not anything new.

 

[Megora]

^^^^ But what does the AKC breed standard say?

 

[goldielynn]

View attachment 882374

^^^^ But what does the AKC breed standard say?

View attachment 882380

In your second picture, the dog on the far left is what I imagine as a "light golden" -- that's why I was confused by the post and question when the OP asked for light golden, but had links to breeders who were breeding nearly white dogs. It's a very vague phrase and terminology.

 

[MichiganGolden18]

Sorry to start tensions (if I did) and that was never my intention. Just trying to learn.

I really do understand that there needs to be a breed standard for competition and show dogs. But for loving families of the dog, who will meet the dogs needs at every point of its lifespan, I think we all could be tolerant of light colored (with European pedigrees) and darks. Of course, with a responsible breeder and not a puppy mill.

I am just a prospective owner (with lots to learn) and seeking out a responsible breeder, but more importantly a healthy dog that I can provide the best quality of life for. IMHO if an owner, within its financial means, cares and meets the dogs and truly supports them and they have good to excellent health clearances, then there shouldn't be an issue.

Sometimes I wonder if the GRCA would look to its counterparts in Europe or Canadian and accept the light goldens?

But what do I know? Not a breeder or anything like that. I am just looking for a puppy that will enjoy being a part of my family and giving him/her the best life he or she can have. That is my true intention.

 

[Megora]

I really do understand that there needs to be a breed standard for competition and show dogs. But for loving families of the dog, who will meet the dogs needs at every point of its lifespan, I think we all could be tolerant of light colored (with European pedigrees) and darks. Of course, with a responsible breeder and not a puppy mill.

Breed standards are not just for shows.

They define the breed and set the type.

It's why people who know this breed can spot a golden at a glance.... and spot what ISN'T a golden at a glance.

It's why we don't have dogs with blue eyes or spotted or liver coats. It's why we do not have dogs with white coats.

It's why the golden temperament is what it is.

It basically is why we do not have 26" dogs or 13" dogs.

It is why these dogs weigh a very specific weight range.

If a breeder does not know the breed standard or is deliberately breeding for attributes outside the breed standard, that's a big shame.

 

[MichiganGolden18]

Thanks for sharing.

I will seriously consider this when talking with my family about a prospective puppy.

Hmm just interesting to see some breeders with very very light colored goldens and clearances. Should I be skeptical then? For instance, a breeder such as Kyon in Canada?

 

[Megora]

Thanks for sharing.

I will seriously consider this when talking with my family about a prospective puppy.

Hmm just interesting to see some breeders with very very light colored goldens and clearances. Should I be skeptical then? For instance, a breeder such as Kyon in Canada?

Kyon dogs have color to them. They are not white.

I suggest you speak to that breeder about wanting "white" goldens.

 

[goldielynn]

I read the disclaimer on English Cream Goldens on Kyon's website just out of curiosity. The breeder is echoing much of what this thread is saying and about what many on this forum say: good breeders don't breed for color, English cream dogs don't live longer than their American counterparts, and that there's no such thing as an English cream GR. All good things!

However, they do remark that their litters come in many shades of gold, from very light to rich gold (this is also very similar in normal golden litters as well) -- there's room for a lot of variation in any given litter. Except for Windsor's litter -- all in his litter of 9 were the exact same shade of honey golden (or whatever coat color he falls under, not getting into semantics). But I digress, going with Kyon could leave you in the unenviable position to possibly turn a puppy chosen for you because of coat color? I would encourage you to broaden your restrictive stance on what color dog you'd like when you finally do settle down with a breeder.

 

[Emmdenn]

^^^^ But what does the AKC breed standard say?

View attachment 882380

Undesirable = not as desirable as a darker shading of golden, but not too dark that it gets too deep red. Doesn’t say it’s a DQ, clearly the gene that carries the “gold” color is expressed in different color intensities which is why you have such a range of gold. I don’t see anyone putting up a fuss to this extent about people wanting “red dogs” even though that is also an undesirable color. Again, color is the LAST thing we should be worrying about in the breed. I don’t care what your color preferences are, be it dogs all the exact shade of medium golden, darker reddish gold or pale gold. Don’t care. What DOES matter is structure, temperament, longevity etc. I am 100% on the same page with you regarding breeders advertising ~rare white Goldens~, or red Goldens for that matter. Not reputable.

To the OP: Kyon breeds wonderful, correct dogs, who happen to be light golden. They are European type pedigrees, have excellent longevity and have breed many snow champions, therapy dogs etc. You’ll likely get a light gold shaded dog from them. Keep in mind light puppies will dark several shades into adulthood.

These are my two dogs: Denver (left) is almost 3. He was extremely pale as a puppy. We got the “white golden” “English cream” comments when we were out and about but he always had darker color on his ears and down his back (like you see on Addie on the right) he’s darkened up significantly over the past year and I expect him to darken to match his ear color which is a medium gold. You see Addie has a strip of gold down her back and on her tail, and her ears are a darker gold than the rest of her body. I expect this to be her adult color. Her ears are very similar to Denver’s ears, perhaps a shade or two lighter. Her grandmother was a deep honey gold color as well as all of the dogs behind her. She wasn’t bred for her color, and she was chosen as the pick female because of her structure and temperament.

 

[Hildae]

Thanks for sharing.

I will seriously consider this when talking with my family about a prospective puppy.

Hmm just interesting to see some breeders with very very light colored goldens and clearances. Should I be skeptical then? For instance, a breeder such as Kyon in Canada?

Kyon dogs are a normal light gold. Nothing "white" there from what I see.

 

[Hildae]

Sorry to start tensions (if I did) and that was never my intention. Just trying to learn.

I really do understand that there needs to be a breed standard for competition and show dogs.

That is the big misconception. "For show dogs." No. For all dogs.

 

[Mango’s Mum]

Golden retrievers originate from the UK. The UK Kennel Club standards say Goldens should be Cream, Gold and Golden.

I can’t get my head around the cream debate. I didn’t choose a cream puppy, I came across a wonderful breeder who bred his puppies for temperament and health. I can trace my puppy’s Kennel Club lines as far back as there are records.

I understand it may be different in the US, and it will depend on who is breeding them. I don’t,
however, understand the colour bashing when the colour is actually acceptable in the country the breed originates from. This is a screen shot from the UK Kennel Club.

I know not everyone has a problem with lighter Goldens, but I’ve seen a few comments implying they are inferior, or even not a true Golden Retriever if they have a lighter coat.
I personally love Goldens in all their wonderful colours!

 

[Emmdenn]

Golden retrievers originate from the UK. The UK Kennel Club standards say Goldens should be Cream, Gold and Golden.

I can’t get my head around the cream debate. I didn’t choose a cream puppy, I came across a wonderful breeder who bred his puppies for temperament and health. I can trace my puppy’s Kennel Club lines as far back as there are records.

I understand it may be different in the US, and it will depend on who is breeding them. I don’t,
however, understand the colour bashing when the colour is actually acceptable in the country the breed originates from. This is a screen shot from the UK Kennel Club.

I know not everyone has a problem with lighter Goldens, but I’ve seen a few comments implying they are inferior, or even not a true Golden Retriever if they have a lighter coat.
I personally love Goldens in all their wonderful colours!

View attachment 882382

I agree. And that golden people in Canada and the UK find the color debate to be totally absurd. They come in all shades of gold, from very light to very dark. Yes we have breeders here who purposely breed for the very pale or very dark colors, that’s an issue on its own because those types of breeders often forego health testing and choosing dogs for color rather than structure or temperament. But there are also byb and puppy mills of every shade and type of golden imaginable, so the blanket statement of hate against pale gold dogs is just ridiculous. The quality of the dog is so much more than the shade of gold of its coat.

 

[Megora]

Undesirable = not as desirable as a darker shading of golden, but not too dark that it gets too deep red. Doesn’t say it’s a DQ, clearly the gene that carries the “gold” color is expressed in different color intensities which is why you have such a range of gold. I don’t see anyone putting up a fuss to this extent about people wanting “red dogs” even though that is also an undesirable color. Again, color is the LAST thing we should be worrying about in the breed. I don’t care what your color preferences are, be it dogs all the exact shade of medium golden, darker reddish gold or pale gold. Don’t care. What DOES matter is structure, temperament, longevity etc. I am 100% on the same page with you regarding breeders advertising ~rare white Goldens~, or red Goldens for that matter. Not reputable.

Em - my only point was instead of quoting a breed standard written for a foreign club, you need to refer to the breed standard as written by GRCA - which breed standard has changed very little since the beginning in the 20's. Especially if you show AKC.

The Kennel Club breed standard was altered in the 30's to very specifically include the very light colors and I believe rewritten again to kinda discourage the darker coloring that was the root of the breed. And I believe the CKC followed suit.

I don't really give a darn about what other people want in a dog. But I do have to point out that there are many people who like to parse what they like in a breed standard. And if they don't see it there, then they quote a different breed standard than where they live.

I'm less concerned about colors of dogs than I have health clearances and what COE people choose to follow. And believe me, there are people who like to get creative about what rules they choose to follow or invent for what they breed.

 

[Hildae]

I don't think there are any "blanket statements of hate." No one here hates any golden retriever, regardless of color. People have simply said that it's important to be more concerned with health and being to the standard than worrying about the color.