Golden Retriever Dog Forums banner

Pedigree/Inbreeding

1 reading
9.6K views 22 replies 13 participants last post by  Prism Goldens  
#1 ·
I'm trying to do my due diligence in researching a quality breeder. I came upon two breeders that are well regarded, based on what I've read. They have all the proper clearances, and charge $1800 and up for puppies.

But when I looked at the pedigrees of the dogs they were breeding, I was shocked. In both cases -- two different "top" breeders, two different litters -- I found that there were common ancestries within the breeding. For example, the same dog that sired the dog having puppies is also the grandfather of the dog that sired the current litter (the father of one is the grandfather of the other). There were other common ancestors, but none quite so close as that.

To me, that seems like a classic case of inbreeding. Isn't that what quality breeding should be preventing? Should I avoid these breeders?

Thank you for your help.
 
#2 ·
What you describe is line breeding, not inbreeding.

Inbreeding would be breeding a father/daughter, mother/son, littermates, etc.

Line-breeding:

Line breeding is a tool used in breeding when trying to produce your own lines., i.e., line breeding are: Grandfather to Granddaughter, Grandmother to Grandson (these breeding's are usually considered the best in line breeding), Aunt to Nephew, Uncle to Niece, Cousin to Cousin, etc. These are types of breeding's and are NOT inbreeding. So just because you have the same dog more than once in your pedigree does NOT necessarily mean that your dog is inbred.

Line breeding is a way to double up on a line of dogs increasing your ability to become consistent in producing a certain type. Many breeders use this method for producing their own lines. Just remember you are doubling up on the good genes, as well as the bad. That is why it should only be used by a professional breeder.

Inbreeding:

Inbreeding is the breeding of two closely related dogs. Father to Daughter, Mother to Son, Half Brother to Half Sister, and Full Brother to Full Sister are all inbred breeding's. Anything further apart is NOT inbreeding. Without CAREFUL inbreeding, we would not have the breeds we do today. It is the careless puppy mills and BYB’s that mess everything up!
 
#4 ·
Another thing to think about is what type of golden litters are you looking at. I know that in competitive field/performance goldens, you will probably see more line breeding, simply due to the fact that the pool of REALLY competitive dogs is small.
 
#5 ·
Actually, the show lines do it "big time"... As an example, look to COI's on some of the Nautilus dogs on k9 data.
 
#8 ·
It is technically line breeding, check out the COI's on k9 data... My dogs are generally around a COI of 9 %. Some of the big breeding kennels here in the Northeast are greater than 25% COI's in their pups.... That's a lot of repeating ancestors...
 
#9 ·
There isn't a black and white answer to your question.

There are pedigrees with low-low COI's that will produce big time problems, the same can be said about those pedigrees with COI's in the 20's. What matters in the end are the top-contributing dogs, and what the general longevity and health clearance history is like. If you see a pedigree full of long lived dogs, and dogs that continued to receive their eye clearance and passed the rest of their clearances all over the pedigree, than even if the COI is on the higher side, that pedigree would still be a good choice.

I think if I have learned anything in the years of research, is that you can't make broad brush statements when it comes to breeding decisions and genetics. Nothing is simple.
 
#10 ·
That is all well and good. My lurking experience on Orthopedic Foundation for Animals and on k9 data is that I will still contact owners for clearances... I still stand behind my assertion that some of the big breeding kennels have some high COI's... And they also do not post all eye and heart clearances or elbows! It is caveat emptor!!!
 
#13 ·
Even if the breeders themselves don't, odds are that you go a few generations back and the dogs are linebred. You can see this by viewing the COI info on a pedigree.

Good example is my Jacks' COI looks like this:

10-generation COI = 3.68%
12-generation COI = 5.30%

That's pretty good, right?

Go further back to one of his ancestors who was heavily linebred (Gold Rush dogs) -

10-generation COI = 22.08%
12-generation COI = 24.19%

**** I hope that somebody with more knowledge on all this corrects me if I'm wrong here. I do believe it's possible to find breeders who keep those COI's low in their litters. Jacks non-Gold Rush side of the family for the most part has COI's in the single digits.
 
#12 ·
You should do what you feel comfortable with. The reality is that the farther you go out in golden pedigrees, the more inbred they become.
 
#14 ·
What surprised me is that, despite my breeder not only breeding both of Flip's parents, but also breeding all four of his grandparents, his 12 gen. COI is only 4.46 (10 gen is 3.96).

But the girls I am considering using for my next pup was linebred - grandfather to granddaughter.
 
#15 ·
there is inbreeding
linebreeding
outcrossing

the difference between inbreeding and linebreeding is this imaginary line that exists that a person determines what is to close a relationship to breed dogs to each other and there is no set in stone determination. is grandfather to grand daughter to close is great grandfather to grand daughter better...

if you determine that the relationship is to close then you will call it inbreeding someone else will call the same breeding a line breeding

a linebreeding is any breeding wiht common ancestors... now when we think of inbreeding we often only think of the bad things that can happen but IF you know what you are doing and you know the dogs in the pedigree then you can get good things as well. For example I will use my flat coats as an example I bred a flat coat litter and line bred on a girl 4 generations back called Wyndhams Fancy that girl was a healthy long lived girl who lived into her teens... most flat coats only live to be 7... so by having that girl show up in the pedigree several times.. the thought was that her genetics would be more dominant and that it would help the longevity of my litter .... now if that girl had problems then it would have also increased the likelihood of those problems... the key is that you MUST know the pedigree.. you must know the good and the bad before you linebreed

In an outcross you have no common ancestors... the dogs are all new on each side and there is no overlap... so from a breeding perspective... how can I even guess as to what I am going to get with my puppies... it becomes very hard to know... what will I get for temperament... (low key, higher energy) who knows... what will I get for size or colors or type??? who knows... the litters become a mish mash with alot of diversity ... this doesn't mean the puppies are bad or there is anything wrong with the litter but it becomes less predictable for the breeder. I have done outcrosses and I get some low key pups some high energy pups, some big some little... there is very little consistency and from a breeders perspective I don't really like that.

Linebreeding is not a bad thing and wiht a responsible breeder who has done their homework you can get some very consistent puppies with some very desireable traits but in the hands of someone who is clueless it can be a problem... but all breeding is a risk and in a linebreeding a responsible breeder is trying to minimize that risk
 
#17 ·
Shalva gave very good definitions of the different types of breeding. There are a few concepts that you need to understand other than those things, as well.

1. Breeding is not black and white. It is more shades of gray-the longer a breeder breeds, the more shades of gray they will see. This does not make them a bad breeder, it actually makes them a good breeder because there are very few absolutes when dealing with genetics.

2. You can have an outcrossed pedigree that has a very low COI and still have it be a bad breeding decision. A breeder needs to look at the whole BIG picture. There is more to take into consideration than just a COI when breeding. A COI is simply a coefficient of inbreeding. However, in goldens, we have many very well known littermates that were brothers that stood at stud, we also have a few pairs of brother/sister combinations that were very popular-meaning the brother was used at stud quite often and the sister was an oustanding dam many times over so there were lots of puppies put in homes where they would be competing and eventually breeding. We also have some very prolific litters of dogs that are often seen in pedigrees. One such example of brothers would be Tristan(CH Asterlings Go Get'em Gangbuster) and Ace(CH Asterling's Buster Keaton). These brothers could be in a pedigree many times and it would never show up in a COI because a COI is the measure of the SAME DOG in a pedigree and not littermates or other closely related relatives.

3. Another way you can have a very low COI and still have it be a bad breeding decision is if the dogs with the low COI's have bad temperaments, have spotty health information or all died early deaths. Sorry, I would much rather have a higher COI and have health, temperament and longevity.

4. If you have dogs that have lived well into their teens, were healthy for that long life, had good temperaments and produced strong clearances as well as producing good type-you would WANT to linebreed on those dogs to maintain those things in a pedigree. A COI can be higher because one dog appears more than once in a pedigree and other than that one or two dogs, still not be a closely related pedigree because all the other dogs in the 3 or 5 generation pedigree do not repeat. Genetic influence tables are actually a better indication of these type of things and will give you a much bigger picture.

5. Goldens did not come from a very large gene pool. All goldens descend back to one pair and goldens are not an old breed like many of the breeds that are recognized by the AKC. For example, the curly coated retriever is believed to be one of the oldest retrieving breeds. So, when you have a limited gene pool and all dogs go back to a particular subset of dogs, there is going to be a certain amount of linebreeding done. Linebreeding is how the golden became a golden. Lord Tweedmouth actually kept pretty detailed breeding records and I think many would be surprised to learn how goldens actually came about.

A person is really limiting themselves when they make broad statements and won't even look at linebreeding. We are not talking about people-this is not something that is taboo. All animals do a certain amount of linebreeding. Terriers are believed to be one of the healthier groups of the dogs recognized by the AKC and they practice inbreeding(breeding father to daughter, etc) quite often.

I am not advocating very high co-efficients of inbreeding. There must be some genetic diversity to maintain a breed, however, there must also be a certain amount of linebreeding to keep the breed as it is(the way it looks, acts, etc-that is defined as type) Linebreeding is what sets the different characteristics that are type. There is just a lot more to understand about the different types of breeding than reading a couple articles on the internet.
 
#18 ·
new puppy research

I found an awesome breeder, within 2 hours. I found her on AKC Website.
Not sure if this is inbred

The new puppies Father is the FAMOUS Gold Rush Sun-Beam.
The Mother of the new puppy...this is where it gets weird.
Her Great-Grand father on BOTH her MOM and DAD's side is Sun-Beam??? Sunbeam's female off springs ( 2 different liters) conceived with different Stud's. The male from one liter and the female from another liter had the Mother of the new puppy?
Is this too much in breeding?

Also I see that Sun-Beam had puppies listed as off springs 2 years after he past?
 
#21 · (Edited)
Here is the puppy pedigree- Pedigree: for Honeysuckle 712 I will leave it up for a couple of weeks so you can await the COI calculation. I would guess it will be high on Hank (Sunbeam's Private Party) and I'd guess it will be a total of around 16% or so. Someone else may think differently. He's actually in there three times in the 5 gen. I do not (in case you are swayed by this 'famous' tag) think the sire is at all famous, though. He's not finished, has no heart or eye on OFA, and the dam has a practitioner cardiac clearance (does not comply w CoE).
 
#23 ·
AKC is a registry, nothing more- they don't know if someone is a good breeder or not. I would suggest you check w New Jersey Pine Barrens GRC, or maybe there's a closer one to look at. Also you can search here for Gold-Rush and there are lots of threads to read.
The best breeders don't need to put ads on AKC's puppy ads. At least IMO.