[nolefan]

Hmm. If the dog wants to “turn off the pressure,” then by definition, the pressure is aversive. Therefore applying the “pressure” is positive punishment...

Punishment and aversive are not interchangeable terms. Any parent can tell you that telling a child that disobeying the order to walk next to them in the parking lot will give the child an unpleasant result in a punishment of being yelled at and losing a privilege at home. The same parent can also tell you that holding the same child's hand in the parking lot is comfortable and even enjoyable when the child follows directions, it only becomes pressure when the child refuses to comply, hand holding isn't a punishment it's an aversive - the child can easily control the situation as it happens.

These conversations don't have to be painful and confusing if we can agree that there are different ways to achieve results with dogs and dogs are all unique individuals, so some ways work better depending on the situation and the dog. It could be argued that giving very clear boundaries and consistent consequences to a dog is far kinder in the long run than dragging out the development of a dog in training by offering choices that clearly don't balance out with deep seated instincts or pleasure rewards in the mind of the dog. In the end, I love hiking off leash with my dog and so does she and the safety of my dog with a solid recall far outweighs any questions about the definitions of punishment or pressure.

 

[K9-Design]

I love when people who don't use ecollars, tell others how to use ecollars, or how ecollars work. Sigh.

 

[chelseah]

So on the subject of e-collars, does anyone with experience have a recommendation on a program/guide for newbies? I would like to spend my waiting time before my next puppy (hopefully late summer/early fall) learning more about training.

 

[diane0905]

I thought by pager people were referring to the vibration function, not a tone? I avoid the vibration completely with Logan because he startles from it. There’s no way to adjust it (to my knowledge) and it’s a pretty strong vibration. I’d rather use a low stimulation (when low stimulation is applicable to the situation) because it does seem to me to work like a tap on the shoulder rather than an aversive. It could be because there have been times where a more corrective stimulation has been used and a dog would rather avoid that from recurring.

A e-collar is certainly a more efficient way to train rather than a dog repeating mistakes over and over. I think it works best for some training situations and venues and in others perhaps is not needed. I would not use one in competition obedience, for example, but I wouldn’t want to train for field without one because of the distance factor. I also find it invaluable for places where we can safely off leash walk and hike. That’s just my thoughts…

On a happy e-collar note, today I took Logan for a walk with my husband. We were down in our watershed/pond area (more land and away from roads) and Brian asked me if he could unleash Logan to throw his tennis ball. He wasn’t wearing his e-collar and I guess it temporarily left my brain (this was me being dumb) we were in the watershed area and even though there weren’t people around, there are critters of various sorts.

Brian unleashed Logan, and as life goes, as soon as he threw the tennis ball a deer jumped out of the woods and ran right across the line Logan was running in towards the tennis ball. 🤪 Logan looked at the deer as he was fastly running, I yelled “HERE!” in the tone that comes out of me when I have a sense of urgency, and he turned on a dime and came back to me. The e-collar has been heaven sent as far as I’m concerned related to Logan’s recall. It gets five stars from me for that alone.

 

[diane0905]

So on the subject of e-collars, does anyone with experience have a recommendation on a program/guide for newbies? I would like to spend my waiting time before my next puppy (hopefully late summer/early fall) learning more about training.

Connie Cleveland has one that is good.

Electric Collars - An Instructional Guide

An electronic collar is not a quick fix, nor will it produce instant results, however, if you want to know how to use the tool correctly and appropriately, we want to help.

www.obedienceroad.com

I took Logan to an experienced e-collar dog trainer at Dog Trainer’s Workshop for e-collar conditioning. Since I had never used one, I felt more comfortable doing that. After that, she spent an hour with me showing me how to use it and I bought the above linked instructional guide to further learn proper usage.

 

[diane0905]

So on the subject of e-collars, does anyone with experience have a recommendation on a program/guide for newbies? I would like to spend my waiting time before my next puppy (hopefully late summer/early fall) learning more about training.

I had to go look — Robin McFarlane also has one and I like her a lot. If I were just beginning, I’d probably pick Connie Cleveland’s though because I find her so easy to understand. She does a great job explaining things and is more succinct.

Robin’s is quite longer — five disc DVD set, but it’s available to stream now:

MacFarlane: E-Collar Training

MacFarlane: E-Collar Training. Over 5 HOURS of Obedience Training! Includes BONUS Basic Obedience Video ($40 value) Available in your choice of Streaming or DVD $97.00 (Save $62.00) Want to get streaming INSTANTLY? Order Streaming here. --> <iframe...

www.gundogsupply.com

 

[SRW]

So on the subject of e-collars, does anyone with experience have a recommendation on a program/guide for newbies? I would like to spend my waiting time before my next puppy (hopefully late summer/early fall) learning more about training.

Total Retriever Training
Vol 1 Articles
E collar Conditioning

Mike Lardy | YBS Media

ybsmedia.com

 

[chelseah]

Thanks @diane0905 and @SRW !

 

[CbJax]

So on the subject of e-collars, does anyone with experience have a recommendation on a program/guide for newbies? I would like to spend my waiting time before my next puppy (hopefully late summer/early fall) learning more about training.

This guy has some great training videos:

Ecollar Training

 

[ferst]

An excellent book for a simple, straightforward, step-by-step e-collar training method:

The Art of Training Your Dog: How to Gently Teach Good Behavior Using an E-Collar by the Monks of New Skete

The Art of Training Your Dog: How to Gently Teach Good Behavior Using an E-Collar: Monks of New Skete, Goldberg, Marc: 9781682685020: Amazon.com: Books

The Art of Training Your Dog: How to Gently Teach Good Behavior Using an E-Collar [Monks of New Skete, Goldberg, Marc] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Art of Training Your Dog: How to Gently Teach Good Behavior Using an E-Collar

amzn.to

Dogtra - Tom Davis 280C Remote Dog Training E-Collar
(be sure to get the newly updated “Boost and Lock” version)

Amazon.com: Dogtra Tom Davis 280C Boost and Lock Remote Dog Training E-Collar, Bungee, Waterproof, 127-Level 1/2-Mile Range : Pet Supplies

Amazon.com: Dogtra Tom Davis 280C Boost and Lock Remote Dog Training E-Collar, Bungee, Waterproof, 127-Level 1/2-Mile Range : Pet Supplies

amzn.to

Dogtra CUE Remote Dog Training E-Collar

Amazon.com: Dogtra CUE E-Collar with Safety Level Lock Boost Vibration Waterproof Rechargeable for Small Medium Large Dogs Dog Training Collar : Pet Supplies

Amazon.com: Dogtra CUE E-Collar with Safety Level Lock Boost Vibration Waterproof Rechargeable for Small Medium Large Dogs Dog Training Collar : Pet Supplies

amzn.to

Mini Educator ET-300 Remote Dog Training E-Collar

Amazon.com : E-Collar - ET-300-1/2 Mile Remote Waterproof Trainer Mini Educator Remote Training Collar - 100 Training Levels Plus Vibration and Sound - Includes PetsTEK Dog Training Clicker : Pet Supplies

Amazon.com : E-Collar - ET-300-1/2 Mile Remote Waterproof Trainer Mini Educator Remote Training Collar - 100 Training Levels Plus Vibration and Sound - Includes PetsTEK Dog Training Clicker : Pet Supplies

amzn.to

INVEST $200 IN A HIGH-QUALITY, FULL-FUNCTION E-COLLAR. DO NOT BUY A CHEAP E-COLLAR BECAUSE YOU WILL DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD

 

[SRW]

INVEST $200 IN A HIGH-QUALITY, FULL-FUNCTION E-COLLAR. DO NOT BUY A CHEAP E-COLLAR BECAUSE YOU WILL DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD

$300 - $400

 

[Atlasdog]

I bought a Garmin for my dog Atlas & the Garmin YouTube channel had a ecollar training series that was really simple and easy to follow. My dog goes nuts when I take out the ecollar because he’s so excited to go off leash. An ecollar for us is a 100% necessity for safety and the only way my boy can go off lead due to the stray animals, horses, camels and people who are usually afraid of dogs around here. Highly recommend the Garmin collar for ease of use - 😊

 

[ferst]

$300 - $400

In my opinion, unless you're doing hunting, tracking, or fieldwork, there is absolutely no need to buy a $300 to $400 e-collar. The three $200+ models I suggested in a previous post are more than sufficient and are excellent for everyday training (including recall). Most importantly, what you do not want to buy are the sub-$200 e-collars which are typically sold at a pet store chain store (ex., PetSmart or Petco), and typically have only a dozen or so stimulus settings and a short range of only a couple of hundred yards.

The customer service folks at Dogtra (888-811-9111) are excellent at helping to determine the right e-collar for any level of user. They also do an open Instagram Live Q&A's (@dogtraofficial) every week or so.

 

[Zerpersande]

I thought by pager people were referring to the vibration function, not a tone? I avoid the vibration completely with Logan because he startles from it.

On a happy e-collar note, today I took Logan for a walk with my husband.
…… I yelled “HERE!” in the tone that comes out of me when I have a sense of urgency, and he turned on a dime and came back to me.

I fully agree with your entire post.

Regarding the pager function, the Educator EZ-900 has both tone and vibrate functions that have programmable intensities. The unit has to be connected to a computer to do this. And the software was a real pistol to get installed. The software is only Windows based so if you have a Mac you have to have Windows installed on a virtual partition. Or, like myself, have a Windows machine for such purposes.

But even putting the vibration on the lowest mode is something Clooney really dislikes. That being said, I have used that to keep himmoutnofbthis one room in the house. This room is a tatami mat room (Japanese style room with rice straw mats). But he doesn’t like the tone either. it’s used sparingly.

As for your recall story, I have had a similar situation. My last Golden was off-leash 95% of the time. A close, solid heel and solid recall where the core of his training, he was a show dog. One night we were in a area about 5m from a road. Not heavily traveled at night, but we walked it any hour of the day off-leash. But this night a cat jumped out suddenly and sprinted for the road, Charlie took off immediately. I gave the ‘Come!’ command in a loud, authoritative, demanding tone. Charlie spun on a dime.

Some people would say Charlie should have been on a leash. I would say that Charlie experienced almost all of his life without a leash. He had a freedom that most dogs never had.

 

[Zerpersande]

Mini Educator ET-300 Remote Dog Training E-Collar
https://a.co/d/0A5b4gD

I went with the Educator EZ-900. Programmable buttons and levels of tone and vibration and quite a few bells and whistles. About $225 on Amazon.

And the manufacturer is super responsive to problems. I live in Japan and had a problem with a sticky button that made it overly sensitive to activation. I would inadvertently stim Clooney. I made contact and the person said he would forward my message to the appropriate department. The next day I received a message stating that shipping notice with an expected delivery date. Wasn’t even requested to return the old unit. That’s nice because I can scavenge the battery in the future.

 

[Zerpersande]

In the end, I love hiking off leash with my dog and so does she and the safety of my dog with a solid recall far outweighs any questions about the definitions of punishment or pressure.

My feeling exactly. My dog has a sense of freedom. And he looks happy enjoying that freedom. Leash laws exist because pet owners haven’t properly trained their dogs. I have neighbors that look embarrassed or hurry their yapping, lunging canines along when they pass by Clooney walking calmly off leash. Clooney will look at them, he’s still young. My previous Golden, Charlie, totally ignored other dogs, generally not even deigning to look at them. When hiking and I meet others on a tight trial, I step off and give the place command, then wait for others to pass.

Badges and leashes are the same.

”Badges? BADGES??? We don’t need no stinkin’ badges!!”

 

[SRW]

In my opinion, unless you're doing hunting, tracking, or fieldwork, there is absolutely no need to buy a $300 to $400 e-collar. The three $200+ models I suggested in a previous post are more than sufficient and are excellent for everyday training (including recall). Most importantly, what you do not want to buy are the sub-$200 e-collars which are typically sold at a pet store chain store (ex., PetSmart or Petco), and typically have only a dozen or so stimulus settings and a short range of only a couple of hundred yards.

The customer service folks at Dogtra (888-811-9111) are excellent at helping to determine the right e-collar for any level of user. They also do an open Instagram Live Q&A's (@dogtraofficial) every week or so.

That's probably true. I am not familiar with those models. I have a Garmin sport pro that is very good cost $300 for the transmitter and collar. At one time I had a sport dog ecollar that was around $160 maybe $180. I don't recall the model, but it was not a good collar at all. The stimulation level varied, depending on the amount of charge in the collar battery.