Golden Retriever Dog Forums banner

1 - 20 of 38 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi - we are about to commit to a female puppy from this breeder's litter and I want to get a final opinion from you guys on this forum.

We are looking forward to getting a dark red retriever (we had our happy boy Shelby for over 14 years).

Breeder: Windy Knoll Goldens
Location: Benson, VT
Sire: Thunder Ridge Goldens Sampson
  • AKC #SR50570006
  • DOB: June 13, 2008
  • OFA Hips: Fair
  • OFA Elbows: Normal
  • OFA Heart & Eyes: Normal
Dam: Windy Knoll Clara Barton
  • AKC #SR95923507
  • DOB: October 25, 2016
  • PennHIP: Pending
  • OFA Heart: Normal
Price: $1800

This is Clara's (the Dam) first litter. She had the puppies on November 5th. She had 9 puppies. The breeder had already taken 8 deposits and we were on call if the litter was larger than 8 - the litter is 9 so there is a female puppy for us!

Are there any red flags or would you recommend this breeder? The only thing we have been concerned about is the breeder had the puppies on Nov 5 but has only shared the three photos here - we've asked for more photos but they said they will send us more on Nov 12. Is that normal? Do breeders usually not post pictures of each puppy until after a week or so?

Breeder's "About Us"
Dam and Sire
The sales contract:
 

·
Golden Ret Enthusiast
Joined
·
1,423 Posts
I personally wouldn't buy from this breeder. The Dam (Clara) doesn't have sufficient Heart clearance as it's by practitioner and not a cardiologist (as per GRCA CoE) and the Hips apparently are still pending (PennHip) and nothing else is listed on OFA like eye, nor OFA hips/elbows. This means they bred the Dam before she had her hip/elbow clearances.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
4,373 Posts
I see a huge red flag, neither parent appears to have any health certifications. The dam turned 2 while in whelp so she was too young for hips or elbows when bred. She could have had heart and eyes after she turned one but even that wasn't done. I can't find the stud anywhere one OFA either. With no titles and no health certifications $1,800 is way too much.
 

·
Golden Ret Enthusiast
Joined
·
1,423 Posts
I have to really search for this guys registered name.Sampson's reg name is Sir Sampson Of Thunder Ridge


https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1622389


The eyes are almost 4 years our of date as well as then have to be each year and within a year of the breeding to be considered up to date. Last one was done in 2014 from what I see. This is if we are talkign about the same dog which i believe we are.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Here are the AKC numbers. I found the Stud on OFFA. Let me know if this helps and if you still think the same. Thanks for your help!
AKC #SR50570006
AKC #SR95923507
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
4,373 Posts
I have to really search for this guys registered name.Sampson's reg name is Sir Sampson Of Thunder Ridge


https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1622389


The eyes are almost 4 years our of date as well as then have to be each year and within a year of the breeding to be considered up to date. Last one was done in 2014 from what I see. This is if we are talkign about the same dog which i believe we are.
Good sleuthing!

OP, note that the sire is the dams great uncle. Her grandfather is his half brother.
 

·
Golden Ret Enthusiast
Joined
·
1,423 Posts
I'm also not a fan of a breeder's contract that only allows for another puppy if you need to return the pup due to congenital problem (may need to be put down). as a breeder that is breeding dogs that are under age and that don't have full clearances tells me they expect a few dogs not to not be as healthy and it's easy to cover that "guarantee" with just another puppy with potentially the same issues.
 

·
Golden Ret Enthusiast
Joined
·
1,423 Posts
What does that mean? The sire has his clearances and you are saying he is the great-uncle of Clara. Is that bad for the health of the litter if the sire has his clearances? https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/health/for-breeders/understanding-canine-genetics/inbreeding-and-health/

The Sire isn't bad per say but he isn't up to date. Eye have to be done yearly and within 1 year of the time of breeding and his last eyes were done in 2014. But the Dam is not a dog that should have been bred period. You can't do hips until 24 months. you have to have them done BEFORE the breeding takes place. The Dam was under 24 months of age at the time of breeding, which regardless of clearances, should never be bred until after 2 years of age. This breeder is not following the GRCA Code of Ethics. Also, the Dam's heart is done by a practitioner NOT a cardiologist which mean s it is insufficient. A practitioner is very unlikely to be equipped with the skills or knowledge to accurately detect small issues with the heart, only a noticeable murmur.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
I would look elsewhere.
Can you provide more detail? If the male has all his clearances and the female has one of hers. I know on this forum I read that both parents should have all 4 clearances but that has been very difficult to find for a red retriever. Even the breeders without all 4 clearances price up to $2500 for the puppy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
The Sire isn't bad per say but he isn't up to date. Eye have to be done yearly and within 1 year of the time of breeding and his last eyes were done in 2014. But the Dam is not a dog that should have been bred period. You can't do hips until 24 months. you have to have them done BEFORE the breeding takes place. The Dam was under 24 months of age at the time of breeding, which regardless of clearances, should never be bred until after 2 years of age. This breeder is not following the GRCA Code of Ethics. Also, the Dam's heart is done by a practitioner NOT a cardiologist which mean s it is insufficient. A practitioner is very unlikely to be equipped with the skills or knowledge to accurately detect small issues with the heart, only a noticeable murmur.
Thank you - I've run into other breeders (e.g. Raya from Winter Creek Ranch Goldens in Oregon) with the same scenario (the dam not having hip clearance b/c she was bred before getting them).

I'll reach out to the breeder today and ask a few questions - one being the sire's eye clearance and the other being a practitioner exam instead of a cardiologist on the dam. Our last retriever we got from a shelter in Memphis when I was 10 years old and since he lived to 14 I never thought about health clearances until we started researching to get a new puppy this year.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
4,373 Posts
Just for reference, I don't have puppies, my last litter sold for the same as they're asking. The dam is an AKC Senior Hunter and trains and competes in AKC Obedience. The sire is a Canadian Champion, Grand Master Hunter and Grand Master Obedience Trial Champion. I think emotions are pushing you to find a puppy now, but there are better options out there. Heck if these puppies were priced accordingly I wouldn't blame you if you went ahead and just put the extra money toward insurance. But I hate that there are people out there making a living off of dogs and not even bothering to try to better the breed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Just for reference, I don't have puppies, my last litter sold for the same as they're asking. The dam is an AKC Senior Hunter and trains and competes in AKC Obedience. The sire is a Canadian Champion, Grand Master Hunter and Grand Master Obedience Trial Champion. I think emotions are pushing you to find a puppy now, but there are better options out there. Heck if these puppies were pricef accordingly I wouldn't blame you if you went ahead and just put the extra money toward insurance. But I hate that there are people out there making a living off of dogs and not even bothering to try to better the breed.
That is good to know - thank you. I am not pushed to make a decision I'm not comfortable with, but I am ready to pull the trigger as soon as everything aligns. We have been far through the process with another breeder and decided not to go through with it. We felt comfortable with the other breeder that did not have hip clearances on the female because she had her first litter prior to getting the exam - but we were able to see the history of that breeder and photos of their annual meetups with the owners to make us more comfortable with the long-term health of the litter.
 

·
Golden Ret Enthusiast
Joined
·
1,423 Posts
Thank you - I've run into other breeders (e.g. Raya from Winter Creek Ranch Goldens in Oregon) with the same scenario (the dam not having hip clearance b/c she was bred before getting them).

I'll reach out to the breeder today and ask a few questions - one being the sire's eye clearance and the other being a practitioner exam instead of a cardiologist on the dam. Our last retriever we got from a shelter in Memphis when I was 10 years old and since he lived to 14 I never thought about health clearances until we started researching to get a new puppy this year.

Breeders that are not following the GRCA CoE should probably not be charging $1800 for a pup, maybe $1200. The point is if you are OK with not having all clearances, you shouldn't be paying a price that should be reflecting they are doing all the clearances. I understand that that people may not be able to afford $2k+ for a dog but you are seriously risking a lot of heart ache, plus keeping that segment of breeders (ones that don't breed ethically with clearances) in business and continuing to further hurting the breed as a whole
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,390 Posts
For me, following the guidelines around ethical breeding is the bare minimum for me. So if one of the dogs is being bred before age 2, or before all clearances are done, that's a no go for me. If the breeder isn't willing to do that bare minimum, if they don't care enough to do that, it suggests to me that they probably aren't doing careful socialization and selection of puppy homes, etc. either. You can do better. There ARE red dogs out there being produced by ethical, careful breeders.
 

·
Grumpy Old Man
Joined
·
4,509 Posts
Health clearances are not the end all, they are the beginning. There is a lot more that goes into breeding nice dogs than just health clearances. Why a particular sire and dam are paired should be of great concern to a breeder. (Not because he was here and he was convenient.)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
17,904 Posts
If the dam was not tested before having puppies, how do you know if she has hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, heart issues or eye disease?

Suppose the dam is tested later and doesn't pass? Then you have a puppy at higher risk of inheriting those defects.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,439 Posts
Can you provide more detail? If the male has all his clearances and the female has one of hers. I know on this forum I read that both parents should have all 4 clearances but that has been very difficult to find for a red retriever. Even the breeders without all 4 clearances price up to $2500 for the puppy.
There are plenty of breeders that breed goldens that are usually red in color. There is no guarantee in color, but some lines have more red in them. There are plenty of those breeders that do all 4 clearances and DNA clearances on their breedings. Why settle for less?

For a dark golden retriever look at:
Top Brass
Thistle Rock
Thunderstruck
To new a few. All of the above will have litters this winter or next year.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
77 Posts
That is good to know - thank you. I am not pushed to make a decision I'm not comfortable with, but I am ready to pull the trigger as soon as everything aligns. We have been far through the process with another breeder and decided not to go through with it. We felt comfortable with the other breeder that did not have hip clearances on the female because she had her first litter prior to getting the exam - but we were able to see the history of that breeder and photos of their annual meetups with the owners to make us more comfortable with the long-term health of the litter.
This appears to be a puppy mill type place. My concern is that there are no pictures of the housing for the adult dogs either on FB or on their website. No talk of their care…just marketing…red dogs, English Creme crosses…non-refundable deposits. Posing kids with puppies in pictures…
The only picture of housing I could find was of a recent birth and there is a video from you tube. The dogs look like they are housed/born in little shacks or just set up in the shacks for pictures. I wouldn’t get a puppy from these people.
https://www.windyknollgoldens.com/2018/11/07/claras-newborn-puppies/
On google earth there is a house with no large outbuildings, just little shacks. But there is a property across the street with a large building that could house a lot of dogs.
 
1 - 20 of 38 Posts
Top