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I'm going to see if I can do this right...
IF you've had elbow clearances done on your dogs, how many have come back NOT normal?
IF you've had elbow clearances done on your dogs, how many have come back NOT normal?
yet another poll for breeders OR people who've had clearances done
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It all depends on what you mean by "not normal". Some may already be familiar with my story but I will repost for those that are not.
I had Lucy's elbows xrayed shortly after she was two years old and sent them into OFA. I was crushed when the report came back "Bilateral Grade 1 - Degenerative Joint Disease". After doing a lot of research and talking to breeders that are much more experienced than I there seemed to be a VERY gray area with OFA and elbows. I was made aware of numerous instances that upon resubmission of new xrays dogs that had elbows not clear initially did pass on a retake. So I had the xrays redone and resubmitted. And OFA gave the new xrays the same diagnosis. The people and vets that looked at the xrays were not able to see why OFA was not passing them. I then decided to have the xrays read by another qualified expert. I sent the exact films that were submitted to OFA to OVC. The OVC said that both elbows were clear and showed no signs of DJD. So after a lot of thought Lucy was bred. I did my best to try and be sure that the dog she was bred to and the dogs behind him showed no evidence of ED.
So from the one litter that Lucy whelped one of her sons was also diagnosed by OFA with "Bilateral Grade 1 - DJD". We immediately sent these exact rays to OVC and you guessed it, OVC said both his elbows were clear with no signs of DJD.
Neither Lucy nor her son have ever showed any sign of any lameness. Lucy will be 9 years old this weekend and as you can see by her titles she has never been a couch potato nor coddled.
Do I believe that elbows need to be submitted for clearances? Absolutely, without any question they should. Do I believe that at this time it is a black and white area? Of course not. But we do know that elbows have become a problem in the breed and how devastating a disease it can be for both the dog and the family. For this reason it is even MORE important to do them so the "experts" can truly understand what it is and what it is not. To just say "I'll do elbows once they know what they are actually looking at" is foolish and and problematic in my opinion. Kind of along the line "if your are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem".
Probably a "little" more than you were asking for Barb!
PS - I checked off 1-5 done with more than 1 abnormal. As I believe most people look at both dogs as having not cleared.
I had Lucy's elbows xrayed shortly after she was two years old and sent them into OFA. I was crushed when the report came back "Bilateral Grade 1 - Degenerative Joint Disease". After doing a lot of research and talking to breeders that are much more experienced than I there seemed to be a VERY gray area with OFA and elbows. I was made aware of numerous instances that upon resubmission of new xrays dogs that had elbows not clear initially did pass on a retake. So I had the xrays redone and resubmitted. And OFA gave the new xrays the same diagnosis. The people and vets that looked at the xrays were not able to see why OFA was not passing them. I then decided to have the xrays read by another qualified expert. I sent the exact films that were submitted to OFA to OVC. The OVC said that both elbows were clear and showed no signs of DJD. So after a lot of thought Lucy was bred. I did my best to try and be sure that the dog she was bred to and the dogs behind him showed no evidence of ED.
So from the one litter that Lucy whelped one of her sons was also diagnosed by OFA with "Bilateral Grade 1 - DJD". We immediately sent these exact rays to OVC and you guessed it, OVC said both his elbows were clear with no signs of DJD.
Neither Lucy nor her son have ever showed any sign of any lameness. Lucy will be 9 years old this weekend and as you can see by her titles she has never been a couch potato nor coddled.
Do I believe that elbows need to be submitted for clearances? Absolutely, without any question they should. Do I believe that at this time it is a black and white area? Of course not. But we do know that elbows have become a problem in the breed and how devastating a disease it can be for both the dog and the family. For this reason it is even MORE important to do them so the "experts" can truly understand what it is and what it is not. To just say "I'll do elbows once they know what they are actually looking at" is foolish and and problematic in my opinion. Kind of along the line "if your are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem".
Probably a "little" more than you were asking for Barb!
PS - I checked off 1-5 done with more than 1 abnormal. As I believe most people look at both dogs as having not cleared.
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Lush, Mystic, Hiphop, Dreamer, Sayer, Fable, Magic, Chelsea, Chapin, Cambridge, and Velvet
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Never done clearances, but I did have one dog X rayed because of lameness and his elbows looked perfect. Naturally, the lameness cleared just days later, and never returned. We have no idea what caused it.
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I don't have experience with OFA but elbows are a tricky thing. Teddi was diagnosed with ED but what kind of ED we can not determine because an xray is not the right tool. She needs an MRI or CT scan and we can not afford that after paying for her hip (another $2000-$3000) So I can understand the reads not being consistent. On Teddi's rads, there is "something". My vet, the ortho vet and a radiologist all agree they are not sure what it is. How's that for an answer.
My "objection" with OFA is it is subjective. I am not saying it is not good but you are asking someones opinion, and you don't know if the person reading is having a bad day. I hope that does not come in to play but how can you be sure it does not. At least as Ambika was saying they were consistent with their reads. I would have been frustrated had it changed too.
Xrays are not the best tool for elbows, TOO much soft tissue etc involved not to mention the angles you need/get. However other options are way too expensive. Maybe that is why you don't get the "ratings" like you do the hips.
My "objection" with OFA is it is subjective. I am not saying it is not good but you are asking someones opinion, and you don't know if the person reading is having a bad day. I hope that does not come in to play but how can you be sure it does not. At least as Ambika was saying they were consistent with their reads. I would have been frustrated had it changed too.
Xrays are not the best tool for elbows, TOO much soft tissue etc involved not to mention the angles you need/get. However other options are way too expensive. Maybe that is why you don't get the "ratings" like you do the hips.
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To date, since incorporating elbow screening as one of the required 4, I have not had one abnormal, I was in the 6-10, none abnormal ratio! Knock On Wood! I only had one boy, (I purchased) have limping at an early age, I did radiographs on his shoulders and elbows, and it was determined to be Pano. He was neutered and placed due to an iffy temperament!
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surely we can get more than 13 votes here....
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I have never owned a dog that had clearances for elbows or hips, but I'm a pre-vet student and work for a veterinarian. I've had the opportunity to take x-rays that have been sent in to Penn Hip, and OFA for elbows. With a lot of things in Veterinary Medicine, alignment, alignment, alignment!!! Heaven forbid we don't align the dog properly, it could result in a skewed reading of the radiograph, etc. Sometimes it is very hard to get a good shot if the dog is huge (re: Cane Corso we did last week), or resistive (re: give sedative). We try our best, but we're human and I could see how a mistake could be made.
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No clue, just a curious onlooker here. Good question!
A question though....are you ever worried about repeated exposure to xrays?
A question though....are you ever worried about repeated exposure to xrays?
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no, because the hips and elbows are only checked once in their lifetime if you do the OFA clearances.
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Thanks. I thought they were done at certain points in the dogs life. So, dysplasia will not occur in a dog who has had clear xrays? Or is it that the chances of it occurring are less likely if the dogs hips are excellent, good, or fair?
Also, what is the difference between a Prelim and the films used to give Clearances?
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Someone besides me should answer this, because I'm just giving an educated guess here...
I think if the dog is not dysplastic at age 2, they can rule out genetic causes. That's what they're looking for in the clearances.
I believe the prelim is done on dogs that aren't old enough for the final clearances, to give breeders an idea whether or not the dog will pass the clearances, and to give people who want to do performance events with their dogs an idea if their hips/elbows are normal and can hold up to the athletics.
I think if the dog is not dysplastic at age 2, they can rule out genetic causes. That's what they're looking for in the clearances.
I believe the prelim is done on dogs that aren't old enough for the final clearances, to give breeders an idea whether or not the dog will pass the clearances, and to give people who want to do performance events with their dogs an idea if their hips/elbows are normal and can hold up to the athletics.
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