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Discussion Starter #1
Hello everyone and Happy New Year! I know this topic has been addressed in previous posts (which I read through), but I am still a bit confused/unclear on the x-pen and crate arrangement.

I am getting my puppy in a few weeks!! (he will be 2-days shy of 8 weeks) and am in the process of setting up the house. We live in an apartment building (5th floor with an elevator) in the city. We are purchasing a wire crate:
and also considering the x-pen: Find this Iris 8-Panel Indoor/Outdoor Pet Pen and more dog pet pens at Walmart.com. Save money. Live better..

The crate will be used when we are not home, at night, and occasionally during the day when we are home (so he doesn't associate the use of the crate with us leaving). I liked the idea of the x-pen so that he does not have full run of the house (I've read that is better to confine them to one room and then slowly introduce them to the whole house). So I guess I will allow him to be in his x-pen while we are home but doing things (like cooking, cleaning, etc.) but of course take him out of the x-pen to play with us throughout the day. At night, I plan to have him sleep in our bedroom in his crate - which would mean moving the crate from the x-pen (the dining room) to the bedroom. Will moving the crate confuse him?

How do I set this up? Does the crate go in the x-pen? Does the x-pen have to connect to the front door so he can let us know when he wants to go out? *I am going to try to completely potty train him outside: for the first 2 weeks I will bring him outside every 40 mins so he does not have the chance to go inside (yes, this will be a challenge being I cannot just walk outside, but instead have to call the elevator and wait...). Very open to suggestions on this, but I really would like to get him used to going outside only (of course I anticipate accidents inside - which I will not scold for).

Part of me feels like x-pen is making things more complex....sorry for the long winded questions :doh: !!

thanks so much! :wave:
 

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The crate is to be used for sleeping and calm times. Any time your puppy comes out of the crate you should carry him to the place he or she will relieve themselves. my trainer suggests that as you put the puppy down in his potty place you say POTTY and praise him effusively until your neighbors think you are crazy. But you should be happy because you have avoided one mess to to clean up. If you let them walk they may go immediately because they have little or no bladder or bowel control at that age. Since puppies in general do not like to poop and pea where they sleep, the X-pen arrangement you mention as I understand it may confuse the puppy. My trainer also thinks that anytime the puppy is out f his crate which should be a reasonable amount, you should have all eyes on the puppy. If you don't his opinion is that any problems are the fault of the owner. I know that can be hard but his reasoning is sound. He suggests creating a settle spot for the dog to go lay down in every room he is allowed in where he can be tethered to a piece of furniture with a short lead. He is not big on the x-pens because it relieves the owner of the responsibility of watching the puppy. You will get varying opinions on this so do what works best for you.
 

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Wyatt Earp
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A "responsible" owner will make sure their puppy is safe from harm whether it is a x pen, crate, baby gates. If you are going to tether you should never leave them alone.......
 

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Discussion Starter #4
The crate is to be used for sleeping and calm times. Any time your puppy comes out of the crate you should carry him to the place he or she will relieve themselves. my trainer suggests that as you put the puppy down in his potty place you say POTTY and praise him effusively until your neighbors think you are crazy.
Thanks! How long do you think I should be carrying him? 2 weeks (which will make him 10 weeks old), or longer?
 

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I would think it is necessary until the house breaking process is complete. Just remember you have to train your puppy where to go. Two weeks seems pretty short time to me. I would think more like 4-6 weeks. And with you living in an apartment, I am assuming there is a lot of ground for you to cover before the puppy reaches the "right" place. Even when you think he is trained, there are likely to be accidents. If that happens simply pick up the puppy immediately a say STOP and carry him to the "right spot". When he finishes his business there, praise him to the point your neighbors might think you are crazy. You should be crazy...crazy happy that a bigger mess to clean up was avoided and your puppy learned.

I will be talking with my breeder/trainer over the next few days and will ask him how long he thinks it would be necessary to hand carry your pup.
 

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A "responsible" owner will make sure their puppy is safe from harm whether it is a x pen, crate, baby gates. If you are going to tether you should never leave them alone.......
My comment was not based on puppy safety, it was base on the fact that unattended puppies do things that are "not appropriate" and lead to inappropriate repetitive behaviors which then must be unlearned through training.

But you are completely right in that a tethered puppy should not be left alone. My comment on that point was not clear. But IMHO a puppy in an x-pen should not be left alone in the house either. Puppies should be under observation or crated which means that puppies probably require more oversight than most people think. The lack of such oversight is not necessarily an insurmountable problem. But it is likely to lead to longer training time and more training to correct inappropriate behaviors than would be required with more observation.
 

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Wyatt Earp
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Thanks! How long do you think I should be carrying him? 2 weeks (which will make him 10 weeks old), or longer?
I wouldn't carry him. I would lead him out to the door so he learns where to go when he needs to go out. Once outside lead him to the spot that you want him to eliminate each and every time. Believe it or not they catch on really fast.
 

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I would have to disagree given the conditions under which this lady lives. She lives in a fifth floor apartment requiring an elevator to get outside. Once she leaves the confines of her apartment, a young puppy with the urge to go is going to have trouble discerning that the hallway which is relatively unfamiliar, the elevator, and any lobby all of which must be traversed is not an acceptable place to relieve himself. Once you carry the pup to a consistent location and instruct him to POTTY, he will eventually understand the association and then can be walked on lead as you described.
 

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Wyatt Earp
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My comment was not based on puppy safety, it was base on the fact that unattended puppies do things that are "not appropriate" and lead to inappropriate repetitive behaviors which then must be unlearned through training.

But you are completely right in that a tethered puppy should not be left alone. My comment on that point was not clear. But IMHO a puppy in an x-pen should not be left alone in the house either. Puppies should be under observation or crated which means that puppies probably require more oversight than most people think. The lack of such oversight is not necessarily an insurmountable problem. But it is likely to lead to longer training time and more training to correct inappropriate behaviors than would be required with more observation.
I was commenting on your post that mentioned your trainers opinion that x pens relieves the owner the responsibility of watching the puppy. I had no problem with keeping an eye on my pup since his x pen was smack dab in the middle of the family room. When he got tired he would circle his safe place to be put in.
 

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Wyatt Earp
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I would have to disagree given the conditions under which this lady lives. She lives in a fifth floor apartment requiring an elevator to get outside. Once she leaves the confines of her apartment, a young puppy with the urge to go is going to have trouble discerning that the hallway which is relatively unfamiliar, the elevator, and any lobby all of which must be traversed is not an acceptable place to relieve himself. Once you carry the pup to a consistent location and instruct him to POTTY, he will eventually understand the association and then can be walked on lead as you described.
That is why it is called training.
 

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My breeder /trainer called just now and i posed your situation to him. He corrected my original thoughts saying setting ex-pens up ,in a quiet area of the family room was OK. To be safe from accidents he suggested that you get a waterproof vinyl tablecloth with the fuzzy backing and lay it upside down over your flooring and put newspapers on top of the table cloth. Put the crate in one corner but she should not have free access to it. Scatter her toys everywhere inside the ex-pen. Do not keep food or water available at all times while you are house training. Set up a schedule so you know what went in and when so you will also know what will come out and when. He said if you stick to a schedule such as when it is time for her to go into her crate you put her in. You can train her to go in with a few small treats thrown into the crate with the command to CRATE. When she does praise her. When it is time to come out, immediately take her out to potty. Praise her when she goes. Bring her in to her ex pen for a while and then take her out to play. At the end of play take her to potty. Praise her when she goes. Bring her back in to the ex pen for a while. Then take her out to train. After training take her to her potty spot. Praise her when she goes. Hope this helps!
 

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That is why it is called training.
No need to get sarcastic.

So how do you propose to teach him that the hallway the elevator or the lobby were inappropriate spots to pea and poop. And how do you expect him to hold it even longer while you clean up the mess he just made.

What I am suggesting is you set up a routine where he knows there is one acceptable spot to go and that going in that acceptable spot is rewarded. Then you can walk him and he knows when he is in the right spot based on positive experience.

You are free to do as you wish. The OP should know that Wyatts Mom has a history of following me to posts and disagreeing with everything I offer. She has already done this twice on this thread. It is up to you to make your own choices and not be distracted by her need to argue.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
My breeder /trainer called just now and i posed your situation to him. He corrected my original thoughts saying setting ex-pens up ,in a quiet area of the family room was OK. To be safe from accidents he suggested that you get a waterproof vinyl tablecloth with the fuzzy backing and lay it upside down over your flooring and put newspapers on top of the table cloth. Put the crate in one corner but she should not have free access to it. Scatter her toys everywhere inside the ex-pen. Do not keep food or water available at all times while you are house training. Set up a schedule so you know what went in and when so you will also know what will come out and when. He said if you stick to a schedule such as when it is time for her to go into her crate you put her in. You can train her to go in with a few small treats thrown into the crate with the command to CRATE. When she does praise her. When it is time to come out, immediately take her out to potty. Praise her when she goes. Bring her in to her ex pen for a while and then take her out to play. At the end of play take her to potty. Praise her when she goes. Bring her back in to the ex pen for a while. Then take her out to train. After training take her to her potty spot. Praise her when she goes. Hope this helps!
I appreciate your taking the time to ask your trainer!! Thanks for all your insights and advice - this was very helpful :)
 

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Wyatt Earp
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No need to get sarcastic.

So how do you propose to teach him that the hallway the elevator or the lobby were inappropriate spots to pea and poop. And how do you expect him to hold it even longer while you clean up the mess he just made.

What I am suggesting is you set up a routine where he knows there is one acceptable spot to go and that going in that acceptable spot is rewarded. Then you can walk him and he knows when he is in the right spot based on positive experience.

You are free to do as you wish. The OP should know that Wyatts Mom has a history of following me to posts and disagreeing with everything I offer. It is up to you to make your own choice.
Sorry you took it that way. IMO the puppy needs to learn to go to the door in order to alert the owner that he needs to go. I am just talking from experience though and not some trainers opinion:)
 

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A puppy may or may not go to the door at a very young age. It is best that you take them out on a frequent schedule. In the case of the OP beyond the door lies several areas where it is equally inappropriate to potty. I am suggesting that early on simply avoiding messing in a public area and having to stop and clean it up carrying the dog to the approved area is better.

BTW, We have raised, bred, and shown dogs for 25 years so this is not our first rodeo. However, we are not so arrogant to think there are not trained people who may know enough to accept their thinking. So my thoughts are based on my own experience backed up by the thinking of trained professionals. You should be more careful with your insinuations and assumptions.
 

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Wyatt Earp
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A puppy may or may not go to the door at a very young age. It is best that you take them out on a frequent schedule. In the case of the OP beyond the door lies several areas where it is equally inappropriate to potty. I am suggesting that early on simply avoiding messing in a public area and having to stop and clean it up carrying the dog to the approved area is better.

BTW, We have raised, bred, and shown dogs for 25 years so this is not our first rodeo. However, we are not so arrogant to think there are not trained people who may know enough to accept their thinking. So my thoughts are based on my own experience backed up by the thinking of trained professionals. You should be more careful with your insinuations and assumptions.
That is why I said IMHO you need to teach them by leading them to the door. They certainly will not learn it by being carried lol!
I never insinuated or assumed anything:confused:
 

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I never insinuated or assumed anything:confused:
If that is the case, what were you trying to say when you wrote "I am just talking from experience though and not some trainers opinion".

If you insist on making snarky remarks then be an adult and have the intestinal fortitude to own up to them rather than acting like a junior high schoo child and trying to deny what you said.

As far as the topic at hand, how do you propose to train the puppy when it poops and pees in the hallway, elevator, and lobby while you have him on lead and are trying to clean up the mess he made.

I have made it clear that a puppy learns through repetition and praise there is a appropriate spot to relieve himself so the carrying does not avoid learning. It just avoids him messing in public areas and makes it more difficult to train him where the right place is while you have to focus on cleaning up the mess.
 

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FWIW, we have carried all 3 of ours to the door when they are young pups. Just based on the way our bedroom and house is set up, it's a little ways to get to the "potty areas" from the crate, so we set them up for success by carrying them. Plus, from our bedroom there is a deck and flight of stairs to our back yard (kind of hard to explain - our house is on a slight slope but our room is on the first floor). It would take forever (and be bad for joints) if we let them try to walk down the stairs as puppies.

Once outside, we put them down outside and say "go potty!" and they go, all 3 (even Kira the 10.5 week old pup) know the potty command. Jack and Chloe also have a poop command, Kira's not there yet. :) As they get older they walk themselves to the potty areas, obviously we're not carrying a 65 lb dog outside. For us, I don't think it teaches a puppy anything if they eliminate on the carpet or floor on the way to the door. I want them to know where it is appropriate to pee/poop and where it is not. I do also think the change in texture (i.e. from the crate to carpet) causes them to potty when they're young. Clearly we still have accidents here and there, but they are minimized by setting them up for success. Obviously there is more than one way to potty train, but this is what's worked for us.
 

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Wyatt Earp
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If that is the case, what were you trying to say when you wrote "I am just talking from experience though and not some trainers opinion".

If you insist on making snarky remarks then be an adult and have the intestinal fortitude to own up to them rather than acting like a junior high schoo child and trying to deny what you said.

As far as the topic at hand, how do you propose to train the puppy when it poops and pees in the hallway, elevator, and lobby while you have him on lead and are trying to clean up the mess he made.

I have made it clear that a puppy learns through repetition and praise there is a appropriate spot to relieve himself so the carrying does not avoid learning. It just avoids him messing in public areas and makes it more difficult to train him where the right place is while you have to focus on cleaning up the mess.
I never denied anything. What I wrote was pretty self explanatory. I have taught both my goldens to follow me to the correct door that leads them to the correct potty spot.. If you want to carry go ahead.
 

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Kristy
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Thanks! How long do you think I should be carrying him? 2 weeks (which will make him 10 weeks old), or longer?
It might be interesting to get some insight from people who have experience potty training an 8 week old puppy in an apartment building situation. If it were me, I'd probably be carrying the puppy down for a while and carrying a 'clean up' bag with papertowels and supplies for anytime I started letting him walk on his own down hallways or in elevators. Too embarrassing to risk an accident. Certainly at some point he will get so big it will be tough to carry him any length of time.

I live in a single family home and I usually carry a little puppy as much as I can :) for the first little bit but even when I start wanting them to walk on their own, I carry them from my upstairs bedroom in the middle of the night orfirst thing in the morning. It has always made me nervous and if I was on a quick mission, I always carried that puppy all the way out in the middle of the yard for quite a while. I didn't want to risk an accident and have to clean up in the middle of the night.

If you are planning to hang the bell on the door to teach him to ring it as a signal to go out, you can help him ring it with his nose on your way out even when you're carrying him.

Best of Luck!
 
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