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Hi all, could someone share their thoughts on the pairing here?

I’m feeling conflicted as the breeder seems to take dog showing seriously but I would think it’s generally a bad idea to pair two dogs with “Fair” OFA hips? Maybe I’m missing something though. It seems like the sire and dam’s other health data points are all “Normal” but the hip thing stood out to me.
 

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Fair is not 'almost dysplastic'. Fair is passing. It's a rating of the actual joint, so yes, good breeders do use Fairs, it would be wrong to cut them out of the gene pool since they are not dysplastic and we have enough bottlenecks created by popular sire syndrome, not understanding carrier status use, and myriad other things.
 

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Fair is not 'almost dysplastic'. Fair is passing. It's a rating of the actual joint, so yes, good breeders do use Fairs, it would be wrong to cut them out of the gene pool since they are not dysplastic and we have enough bottlenecks created by popular sire syndrome, not understanding carrier status use, and myriad other things.
I never realized how much popular sire syndrome was a thing until I started looking through field lines...
 

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I agree with Robin and Anney. And also, if you are talking about the Flynn x Rhoda litter, Rhoda has "Good" hips, not fair. So it's not a Fair on Fair breeding. I wouldn't have a problem if it was Fair on Fair though.
 

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Kate
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I agree with Robin and Anney. And also, if you are talking about the Flynn x Rhoda litter, Rhoda has "Good" hips, not fair. So it's not a Fair on Fair breeding. I wouldn't have a problem if it was Fair on Fair though.
I saw that last night - but figured I was tired and missing something.

@WestCoastGoldenLover - to answer your question, I think it is not a simple one to answer in general.

If a novice breeder breeds a fair to a fair - with no knowledge of what's behind one or both parents, that would be a little bit more concerning to me.

The breeder you are inquiring about is one who has been around a very long time and has more knowledge about not just the dogs themselves that they are breeding, but what's behind them. That is a safer bet - although, I do doubt that many very experienced breeders would do a fair x fair pairing.

Fairs themselves - they are a passing grade. But you see breeders aiming to breed them to goods generally. There is likely a reason why the dogs hips graded fair and there is room for improvement when selecting a mate...

With fairs - other thing to consider is what the xrays themselves look like + if they were redos (dog initially failed, repositioned and re-sent).
 

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If you get a puppy from the Rhoda X Flynn litter, our puppies will be related! My Lana and Molly both have Reason as a grand daddy (you're pup has him as a great grandpa along the Dam's side)! And Lana's daddy is Freedom (who would be your pup's grandpa along the Sire). That pedigree looks amazing. Robin does a great job!
 

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I agree with others that a fair is passing. I also agree that an experienced breeder is much more likely to know the lines they are working with and that a depth of clearances matters. Penn hip, sibling hips, and the actual films also provide additional information that can add to the picture. As to the pairing of fairs? Honestly, I don't see it often. With working or performance dogs I feel like I see it less often. I have to admit that I like to see a fair dog bred to a dog with a strong hip pedigree (depth of clearances, looking at available siblings and back generations). At that point, we get into issues of risk-aversion and everyone's tolerance is different.

Are we looking at the same breeding? I see a good to a fair?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Sorry all, I must have been tired last night. I see the Good to Fair now. What I mixed up is that the sire’s dam also had Fair hips. Honestly this forum has me so paranoid and anxious. I’ve learned so much but I also feel like now I’m scared about so many health issues and breeder "red flags" that I'll never find a safe breeder. Sorry to complain it's just so overwhelming. Thank you everyone for your input.
 

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My boys mom was good and dad was fair. And of course all dogs back in the pedigree had passing hips of various grades, excellent, good and fair. My boy got an excellent rating and the experienced Vet that did his X-rays raved about how great his hips were. 5 of the 8 pups got X-rays, 1 excellent, 1 fair, and 3 good. Fair is a passing rating. Ratings can vary depending on the positioning for X-rays. I think as others have said, it’s important to know the lines behind the dogs being bred.
 

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My boys mom was good and dad was fair. And of course all dogs back in the pedigree had passing hips of various grades, excellent, good and fair. My boy got an excellent rating and the experienced Vet that did his X-rays raved about how great his hips were. 5 of the 8 pups got X-rays, 1 excellent, 1 fair, and 3 good. Fair is a passing rating. Ratings can vary depending on the positioning for X-rays. I think as others have said, it’s important to know the lines behind the dogs being bred.
Exactly the same here - OFA "fair" mom bred to a "good" dad and my dog from this breeding is an "excellent." Generations of tested dogs behind both parents. This is where looking at other dogs back in the pedigree comes in and the breeder and I discussed that we considered the sire a very, very strong "good" (more like an excellent) because of the dogs behind him and what he seemed to produce (frozen breeding and the breeder and I had both owned pups from this sire who were OFA excellent, and we both really liked those pups). In terms of hips, the sire was a good match for her girl.
 

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I have a curiosity question. Don't know of anyone who did it. Would you breed a fair to a fair or would you want at least a good? Trying to learn something new.
 

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I just wandered onto k9data and quickly found a couple of examples - it has been done (I hate to link them here in case that makes them feel "called out"). The ones I found were conformation lines (and I doubt these were because they were the most convenient breeding), but I imagine others will also do it because they feel that they just need THAT spectacular stud for their b!tch or for some...because it was convenient. This is a commonly cited graph about dysplasia, OFA ratings, and breeding (OFA, Keller, 2012):
884413
 

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Let me see if I’m reading this right. A fair to fair breeding has a 19.8% chance of dysplastic puppie? Or is it that 19.8% of puppies ARE dysplastic?
 

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Jennifer
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As others have written, OFA Fair is passing and not dysplastic.

There are some influential sires that were OFA Fair. Hobo is one that comes to mind. With the number of bitches that have been bred to him, I am sure some were OFA Fair, but produced OFA Good and Excellent. Another influential sire, Kirby, was originally rated OFA Fair, but at 10 yrs. old, when elbows became required, his hips were resubmitted along with the elbows. His hips came back rated OFA Good! He also was used a lot before he was 10 yrs. old. Maybe if Hobo's hips were resubmitted they would have come back Good. Hobo's sister, Sassy, was OFA Excellent.
 

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I know I said that I would have no problem with it if Robin Baker was breeding Fair ex Fair, because she knows what she’s doing and she knows her dogs. I personally would have some qualms about it because of the statistics listed above. (Side Note: Can we talk about the severe being bred to severe up there?!? Who is doing this?!?) I would want to see the actual x-rays of the sire so that I could make a judgement on the positioning (there is a quite excellent article about this in the last GR News). And that sire better check literally every other box and go beyond. The hip history would also need to be skewed toward the good/excellent side. The GRN article more or less said that it is better to breed to a Fair with a bunch of Goods/Excellents behind it than to breed to an Excellent with bad history. I am paraphrasing, but you get the point.

I don’t have to worry about this because Eevee’s hips came back Good (#humblebrag), but if she was fair, then the above are some of the things I would do/consider before doing the breeding.
 

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I’m only trying to understand. I chose fair to fair because that’s I had asked about. That’s all dogs rated, not just the ones where the owner check the box I’m assuming. I also wonder who’s breeding severely dysplastic dogs. My guy has a good rating too. I haven’t put him out there because I feel like there’s other things I need to get lined up first.
 
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