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One thing I do not understand about folks I've talked to about golden retrievers is the level of disdain for those who'd dare cross a golden with any other breed. It'd be more understandable if it wasn't for the fact that the golden started off as a mutt (a retriever bred with a spaniel) back in the late 1800's.

Please don't get me wrong, we love our Kona. But, we seriously considered a "comfort retriever" because they would be more "our size" (i.e., 40lbs or so). In the end, we decided that "golden" was more important than "40lbs", and we don't regret our decision.

Please understand that I'm not referring to the indiscriminate breeding of mixes just to "get something new and cute". But, if people held to the same "ethics" in the late 1800's as some appear to do today, there wouldn't be a golden retriever breed to "protect".

Just my $0.02
 

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Kristy
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..... we seriously considered a "comfort retriever" because they would be more "our size" (i.e., 40lbs or so). In the end, we decided that "golden" was more important than "40lbs", and we don't regret our decision....
You just answered your own question. And for the record, we have no disdain for the dogs, it's for the people. We are sick to death of people who are trying to scam uninformed buyers with promises of a dog that will "be just like a Golden" personality/temperament wise but will somehow miraculously have the undesirable Golden physical trait switched out with no loss of any of the other Golden traits. They somehow convince people that they can cherry pick traits like wavy/low shedding poodle coat but it won't have anything else different. The scamming of uninformed buyers for enormous amounts of money is wrong. Especially wrong is the breeder who ignores the health issues that can be produced.

The original creator of the Golden Retriever and the caretakers who continued the early work looked at producing a dog with a specific set of traits for a job. The combination of both mental and physical traits are what have made Goldens a favorite of millions of people world wide for over 100 years. The Golden Retriever breed club and it's members work to preserve the breed, at the very least, do no harm.

The disdain is for the people who presume to change the breed we love and take no care for the health of the dogs they produce or the heartbreak of the families who thought they were getting some kind of a guaranteed product that doesn't turn out to be as advertised: whether it's smaller size or 'non shedding' coat (which doesn't exist). Breeders who say they can guarantee coat texture have actually increased the amount of poodle genetic material into the bloodline of their mixes and it's really more like 75% poodle and 25% retriever. Low odds of getting the fun loving Golden temperament. Why doesn't the buyer just go with a nice carefully bred poodle produced by a breeder who is doing the health clearances for that breed? Instead they are scammed into thousands for a poorly bred puppy from uncleared parents and it's not a Golden or a poodle, it's a mix - and most likely not a mix of the best traits of either breed.

The originator of the Golden put tons of time and kept pretty meticulous records for the time, worked with generations of dogs, raising and training them for a working life, keeping the best or giving them to family and to friends, giving away the dogs that didn't make the cut to people who knew the deal. He wasn't selling them for giant profits and scamming unsuspecting customers. It was an endeavor he put his heart into, it wasn't for monetary gain.
 

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I think (and I hope) the issue stems more from the significant overlap between "people who breed crosses" and "people who breed dogs with no regard for the wellbeing of the puppies they produce (e.g. wacky build that leads to arthritis in late life), no health testing, and who may also be overtly cruel to the dogs they breed."

I would hope that most people involved in the dog world wouldn't be opposed to the intentional, conscientious development of a new breed to serve a purpose, even if that purpose is just companionship. I agree that a 100% opposition to crossbreeding on principle would go against the exact reason that the breeds we love exist.
 

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The disdain is for the people who presume to change the breed we love and take no care for the health of the dogs they produce or the heartbreak of the families who thought they were getting some kind of a guaranteed product that doesn't turn out to be as advertised: whether it's smaller size or 'non shedding' coat (which doesn't exist).
I agree 100% with most of what you said. It's awful to scam people out of their money with false promises. But I respectfully disagree that breeding doodles (for example) "changes" the golden breed.

The presence of more doodles doesn't take away from the number of goldens, nor does the existence of a doodle change any characteristics about the golden retriever breed. To my knowledge, there isn't a big problem of people selling goldendoodles while claiming that they're golden retrievers, and there isn't a big problem of golden breeders "contaminating" their lines with other breeds while believing that they're producing purebred goldens. In fact, it seems that if someone is selling crosses between goldens and another breed, they're going to be extremely upfront about that fact, perhaps even making up a whole new name for that cross, because it raises the going price of those dogs.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here.
 

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I don't hate mutts. My Golden/lab mix was the best dog I ever had.
However you are on a Golden retriever forum full of people who have spent thousands upon thousands of dollars to test their dogs and to excel at breeding these dogs.

Humane societies are full of mixed breeds who people abandoned. People who pay a lot for their well bred dog are less likely to dump them.

Also golden doodles are not always what they are promised. Many shed or carry down genetic issues from both breeds
 

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the party's crashing us
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The sole purpose of breeding a "doodle" is to sell it and make money. They serve no other purpose that many other breeds already in existence don't already fill.
If you want a mutt go rescue one. Don't pay someone to make it for you.
 

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Mutts are great! We had a darling German Shepard/something mix for 12 years; he was amazing! He loved my husband and I, and tolerated the kids when they showed up. His instinct to protect his "pack" arrived with him the day we brought him home from the pound, and stayed with him until the day he passed.

That said: all our other dogs have been Golden Retrievers. Why? Because of their well-known warm personalities, sweet demeanors, gorgeous looks and everything else associated with this wonderful breed.

I know several families with golden-doodles, all purchased because someone in the family had allerigies, plus it's sorta the "dog du jour" for certain personality types: all of these families (total of 3, not a huge pool) don't understand why their golden retriever/poodle mixes don't act like a golden retriever when they see our 19 month old golden retriever (who is younger than all their dogs, better behaved and trained, but that's on me, I worked HARD with him as a puppy, and am reaping the rewards). Umm: because their dogs aren't just Goldens, they've got a breed known for smarts and stubbornness mixed in, and all their dogs seemed to have gotten a heavy poodle dose of DNA over golden DNA.

Luck of the draw, I guess.

With a mutt, you don't know what you're going to get. There's nothing wrong with that. But if you want a dog that looks like a golden retriever, acts like a golden retriever...you need to get a golden retriever and not expect a mutt to be the same thing. Not that they can't be wonderful, because of course they can! Just my 2¢ :)
 

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Kate
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Back in the 1800's, do you know what happened to puppies who weren't kept by the hobby breeders back then?

I'd like to think they were placing them all with people, but fact is even back in the 1910's and 1920's you still had people drowning litters of puppies that were not wanted and dogs who grew up and didn't turn out (who did not serve a purpose) were killed without much concern.

The founders of the breed were not breeding dogs for sale. I think a good glimpse of how they ran things would be watching Lassie. If there were breeders like that rich guy today, we with our modern sensibilities would call that a puppy mill. But things were different back then.

We do not do that today. Our sense of humane treatment of animals means that when a breeder produces a litter of puppies, we expect them to take full responsibility for that litter. It's possible that the original breeder of doodles' game plan (with modern sensibilities) was the dogs who he produced would be considered purebreds right from the start - even if he didn't achieve the goal he was working towards. He wanted a highly trainable working dog that did not shed and that bred true each litter. He did not accomplish that. The dogs he created were crap as far as the original purpose.... and instead what he did was start the ball rolling as far as poodle people breeding these snappy, stubborn, sometimes both people and dog aggressive dogs (toy poodles especially) to everything under the sun.

I have seen some people who think they have hit the nail on the head in telling people that if a guy 160 years ago didn't breed a now extinct water spaniel to an unregistered yellow retriever we would not have had the first litter of the golden retriever breed....

However, something to keep in mind is that we can probably assume that Tweedmouth and others were NOT constantly breeding water spaniels with FCR's to create a golden retriever to sell to gullible types, repeatedly, constantly, continuously, coming up with all kinds of ludicrous calculations on how to make C by breeding A with B.

We saw a thread today with somebody thinking about letting somebody with a poodle use their dog to make a doodle for $$$.

Do you honestly think that's what those dead old rich people back in the 1800's did to create the golden retriever? Did they spend 50-60 (or whatever it's been) years going back to the same tried and true formula? TWS + YR = GR?

Nope, we know that's not the case, because TWS is extinct now with basically very few images of what the breed looked like. And um, there's still a lot of conjecture of what all Tweedmouth and others used to create the golden retriever. I read something recently which seemed to indicate that there were dogs before Tweedmouth that more closely resemble the modern golden retriever. And because people were not breeding specific breeds and keeping books closed the way they do today, we have no idea really what that ancient dog was. We don't even know if it was a spaniel, a setter, a retriever, or a newfoundland.

Am saying that people who are trying to create a breed are not just fixed on breeding two well established breeds together as a loose gamble to produce a certain look and general "type" that people are looking for in a mixed breed. That's not what the old rich guys did ages ago to make the golden retriever. And people who are trying to say they are the new Tweedmouth, are either basically fooling themselves or they are trying to fool others.
 

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NO mixed breed person attempting to create a doodle breed has a staff, kennel master and records. NO modern day doodler has a "plan" and sets out to create that animal if possible and drowns the ones who are produced that don't fit the plan. Not to mention, these dogs have no 'job' to do behind the plan. As I suggested to someone else this week- go read the kennel records. Hundreds of puppies were made and disposed of, and only the ones who were thought to have possibility were kept and bred and some of those didn't breed true (as doodles do not breed true- the whole 'hybrid' nonsense is just 4th grade science class lack of understanding) and no one today has the resources or social support for creating and killing many, many puppies in an effort to make a new breed. The only impetus today is making a new dollar machine. It is a question asked by people who have a simplistic view on what a breed even is.
 

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Also known as dog snobbery. Every dog owner thinks that their breed is the best.

I have a Golden, an Aussie and a Border Collie/Choc. Lab mix....they are all great dogs!
And yes....least some people forget....Goldens really are dogs too. Most dog breeders are in it for the $$, and charge what the traffic will bear; thus the name "Professional Breeders".
 

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Unless we wish to have no predictability and all dogs mixes, snobbery is a good thing. For those interested in learning,
1. The Guisachan Record Book
2. Morphet's aMAZing tome on Golden history, here's an exerpt:
3. Guisachan Kennels – Welcome to the Friends of Guisachan just for interest's sake
4. Schlehr's "The New Golden Retriever" if you can find a copy
and for learning about building a breeding program,
also if you can find a copy (this is written about Labs but the premise is the same)
5. https://www.amazon.com/Reaching-Stars-Formerly-Advanced-Labrador/dp/0944875645 "Reaching for the Stars, Advanced Labrador breeding"
I see this morning I have some a pretty good library at my fingertips! Some of these books even though super expensive ARE available through interlibrary loan programs.
 

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Puddles
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If it weren't for the "snobs" as it's been stated, there would be no defined breeds. These breeds all have a standard to maintain and preserve. The quality breeders for any AKC breed have a code that defines good breeding practices to maintain those traits. It's those standards that make us choose a particular breed.

You want a golden but want it smaller... get a rescue & save a life. Cockers are wonderful, they too come with a design plan/code to preserve the breed. They have certain personality traits that run in their breed just as goldens do. Mix it with something else there is no prediction of what traits these puppies will have, there is no consistence. There are a ton of breeds recognized by the AKC. If one doesn't have the traits that suit your purpose, pick another.

Mixing breeds for profit is wrong. It promotes a terrible over population problem. It brings in lots of health and behavior problem and eventually would destroy the individual breed... if it weren't for the "snobs" trying to preserve the standard.
Why would anyone want to pay $4000 for a mixed breed dog, with unknown health, temperament or size. The shelters are full of them, they get puppies too. And for $49 (in Ft Worth, TX) anyway, you can get the same designer dog for $49.

I have done rescue for over 40 years and had some wonderful dogs, even titled them in obedience. We have done therapy work in rest homes, rehab centers, children's hospitals and given classes to young kids to teach children how to treat their pets. We spent a great deal of time visiting special needs classes with our mutts. They were wonderful and no one was suggesting otherwise. LOL and each one was $49. from the pound.

In those 40+ yrs I have also had the not so nice job of assisting in putting dogs down hundreds of dogs because the shelters were full. I had to assist in killing hundreds of litters that were the result of irresponsible breeding... breeding in masses just to provide puppies is a very sad business. If your goal is to make cute puppies, spend a few months volunteering at a shelter. Foster a few hundred unwanted dogs and learn how over breeding, irresponsible breeding causes a horrible burden on our society. This is no fault of the dogs, most were wonderful... the problem is with the people that produce them with very little thought or concern other than their wallets.

So when you fall in love with the golden/poodle or cocker, thank those snobs for preserving the well bred dog. I think it's safe to say that anyone that chooses a particular breed they have an expectation of what this pup is supposed to be when it grows up. It's predictable in character, traits and abilities. When you rescue or purchase a designer breed you have no idea of what you will end up with. Doesn't mean they won't be a good companion but it does mean there are 100 more just like it at the pounds.
 

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I’m a complete snob about dogs I own and fully admit it. I want a well bred nice looking and well trained dog. I’m willing to put in however much work or money it takes to achieve my goals. That said, I also owned a Golden/Irish setter cross that I got from the SPCA 40 years ago.
I have nothing against mixed breeds but I strongly disagree with intentionally breeding them for profit. If shelters are full why not pick from there if an AKC breed doesn’t exactly meet your criteria?
 

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Here is what you should be asking yourself. What is the difference in a mix breed dog in the ASPCA or any shelter and a mix like any of the doodle mixes (and they are just mix breed mutts)? Answer... they call them something fancy and charge as much and a lot of times more then purebred dogs cost. That is IT. Promises no one breeding them can even begin to comprehend how to achieve they just say it to sell the dogs such as Goldendoodles don't shed, have a golden temperament and all the health issues are bred out. This is what many Goldendoodle breeders claim and it's is not true much of the time.

My neighbor recently bought a Pomski (Pomeranian-Husky). When she got there none of the puppies looked the same, some all white some with Husky markings. The one she bought.. all white was like $3800, the ones with the Husky markings were $4500!?! this is the case with a lot of these "designer breeds". This is after educating her about how to buy a healthy dog and the differences are and they still just buy for looks. It's the vanity that gets these people. I want my dog to look awesome and good looking too but it only starts with health.

Mix breeding happens, that's ok and nothing wrong with a mix, they are dogs too who need love and a home. But purposely doing this to market a mix for profit is the problem. Eventually like said above, you will have ruined breeds and you would never ever know what the temperament of puppies would be like. It would be a total crap shoot. Want a dog that's like a Golden... good luck with that.
 

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Kristy
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.....To my knowledge, there isn't a big problem of people selling goldendoodles while claiming that they're golden retrievers, and there isn't a big problem of golden breeders "contaminating" their lines with other breeds while believing that they're producing purebred goldens. In fact, it seems that if someone is selling crosses between goldens and another breed, they're going to be extremely upfront about that fact, perhaps even making up a whole new name for that cross, because it raises the going price of those dogs. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.
Goldens and Labs are the quintessential family dogs in a lot of suburban families' minds. That is the personality they equate with being people loving and kid friendly. I live in a neighborhood with several Labs and a few Goldens but it wouldn't surprise me if a quarter of the dogs here were some kind of doodle mix. I have asked plenty of neighbors why a doodle. Here are the reasons:

They want the people-loving Retriever personality and just want it to be smaller or non shedding or both. They think the fluffy, fleecy coated puppies are the cutest things ever, but they don't want a poodle.

Doodle breeders have convinced them that it's like a Golden only better - they are standing on the shoulders of every breeder who put in hard work for the love of the breed and tarnishing it by linking it to these doodles who have no health clearances or attempt at temperament testing and to add insult to injury they are making crazy amounts of profit off these dogs. No ethical Golden OR poodle breeder is going to volunteer to have one of the dogs they have poured so much time and effort into being used to produce doodles.

No one thinks their breed of choice is improved by watering down traits and mixing it with another breed and saying it's better. I just saw someone on a facebook page complaining about the Newfiedoodle puppy they purchased and brought home at 5 weeks being aggressive with their children. This is just so sad. Newfie doodle - why???? That puppy is using the newfie name and the poodle name and it is not a great representative of either breed. It takes a brand and tarnishes it. Golden Doodle implies that it is associated with Golden Retrievers - please no. Why do you think Nike dropped Michael Vick? No one wants their brand associated with a less than stellar representative.
 

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Mutts are great! We had a darling German Shepard/something mix for 12 years; he was amazing! He loved my husband and I, and tolerated the kids when they showed up. His instinct to protect his "pack" arrived with him the day we brought him home from the pound, and stayed with him until the day he passed.

That said: all our other dogs have been Golden Retrievers. Why? Because of their well-known warm personalities, sweet demeanors, gorgeous looks and everything else associated with this wonderful breed.

I know several families with golden-doodles, all purchased because someone in the family had allerigies, plus it's sorta the "dog du jour" for certain personality types: all of these families (total of 3, not a huge pool) don't understand why their golden retriever/poodle mixes don't act like a golden retriever when they see our 19 month old golden retriever (who is younger than all their dogs, better behaved and trained, but that's on me, I worked HARD with him as a puppy, and am reaping the rewards). Umm: because their dogs aren't just Goldens, they've got a breed known for smarts and stubbornness mixed in, and all their dogs seemed to have gotten a heavy poodle dose of DNA over golden DNA.

Luck of the draw, I guess.

With a mutt, you don't know what you're going to get. There's nothing wrong with that. But if you want a dog that looks like a golden retriever, acts like a golden retriever...you need to get a golden retriever and not expect a mutt to be the same thing. Not that they can't be wonderful, because of course they can! Just my 2¢ :)

I forgot to add, and this is something I just don't get: the 3 families have golden-doodles, every single family paid more for their dog than we paid for our boy, INCLUDING my air travel/car rental/hotel trip to Canada to pick him up. More!

I don't get it, but, full disclosure, I'm a golden retriever fan and think they are the superior breed. To potentially all dogs, but I don't want to start a fight on this thread ;)
 

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Maegan
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It's not just Golden people that oppose purposeless cross-breeding. It's basically all purebred enthusiasts: these people have spent years or even decades working with and breeding their specific breed, which was originally developed with an actual purpose. Like others have said, it's not that we hate the dogs, it's that we dislike people criss-crossing breeds to make a buck. The developer of the Golden set out with a specific goal in mind: to develop a gentlemen's hunting companion that could withstand the harsh Scottish terrain and weather. He carefully selected males and females from each generation until he had what he wanted and the "mutts" began to be consistent in type with each generation and therefore they became a breed. The vast majority of people cross-breeding are not trying to develop a true new breed with an actual purpose, they just want to make money.

A recent example of like-minded people setting out to develop a new breed would be the developers of the Miniature American Shepherd (mini-Aussie) recently added to AKC's breeds. They set out to develop a smaller, more portable dog to take to rodeos and cattle shows that retained the herding instincts of the Australian Shepherd and the adaptability needed for being on the road. There are people out there now trying to develop new breeds with an actual purpose, but they are not doodle breeders or comfort retriever breeders. The people purposefully developing these new breeds by cross-breeding aren't the ones we have a problem with because they will eventually stop cross-breeding when they reach their goal and their dogs begin to "breed true" and have a defined breed type. King Shepherds come to mind - they have a breed club, a breed standard, and actual goals. While they started out cross-breeding, these dogs now have a type and have begun to breed true. They have shows and competitions and a registry and will likely eventually achieve AKC status.
 

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its really dishonest of these pseudo breeders to claim that their mixed breeds have superior health, longevity and temperaments as well. I've seen many posts advertising these golden doodles as hypoallergenic dogs that do not shed etc, and require low grooming.. then I see posts where people give up their doodles because they are allergic??

I think the worst combination that i've seen so far is the 'GOLDENDOX'. basically a golden retriever dachshund mix combining a larger breed prone to hip & elbow dysplasia with a tiny Dachshund prone to IVDD. I've seen them around and they are a genetic mess bred purely for profit just because they fulfil some version of 'cute'. it sets the dog and owners up for many years of pain and trauma when they have to deal with debilitating expensive diseases. plus the premium they charge for these dogs.. appalling. pomskies are imported to Singapore from Ireland ( basically a horrible puppy mill facility) and they go for 5k USD and up, its ridiculous!
 
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