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Ok, I'm going to take an unpopular stance here...

First, let me say up front that I agree that the majority of breeders producing doodles of any mix (or any "designer" breed) are likely irresponsible breeders who are in it for the almighty buck, and anyone who wants to buy a breed of that mix needs to acknowledge that they are spending big bucks for a mutt that was likely from poorly bred parents. THAT SAID....

I take issue with the statement that "reputable breeders should not be deliberately producing mutts." The vast majority of the dogs recognized as "purebred" today started out with some breeder either deliberately crossing one breed with another or deliberately breeding existing mutts that appealed to them to standardize the type. If Lord Tweedmouth had not deliberately bred one breed to a different breed in an attempt to create a dog with the characteristics he desired in a hunting dog, the Golden Retriever would not exist.

The man credited with breeding the first labradoodle did it for a very specific reason: He was working as breeding manager at the Royal Guide Dog Association of Australia when he was asked to find a dog for an American couple unable to find an appropriate pet. The woman had vision problems and required a guide dog, such as a labrador, but her husband was allergic to animal hair. As a solution, the breeder crossbred a Labrador retriever with a standard poodle, which does not shed its hair. Although he came to regret his role in helping to create the "designer dog" fad, the fact remains that it was an intentional breeding by a "reputable" breeder for a particular purpose. Had the resulting cross proved to be a superior guide dog, they might not now be the focus of such contempt among hobby breeders. Even today, the Guide Dogs for the Blind's breeding program includes golden/lab crosses, I assume because these crosses produce dogs that serve a particular need in their program.

In an effort to make sure that friends who want doodles have the best chance of getting a healthy dog, I've done a fair amount of cruising through doodle breeder websites. There DO seem to be breeders who truly love this combination and are doing all the same health screenings that are recommended by the parent breed clubs. They are also studying the genetics as they move into the 2nd and 3rd generations, and, I believe, working on a breed standard to standardize what is means to be a "whatever doodle." Are we to criticize these breeders along with the "greeders," just because we personally don't like their breed?

What would all of you say to Lord Tweedmouth today if he was using your beloved breed to develop a "better" version?
 

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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/pets/10626590/Breeders-regret-over-creating-labradoodle.html

^^^ I think this is the perfect response.

Quote below:

Mr Conron blames himself for opening a “Pandora’s box” and creating a “Frankenstein”. Dismissing the praise for his creation, he added: “Marvellous thing? My foot. There are a lot of unhealthy and abandoned dogs out there.”

He said that he has never owned a labradoodle as a pet, and stopped breeding them when he retired 20 years ago. He warned against people creating random crosses between different breeds, saying: “I just heard about someone who wanted to cross a poodle with a rottweiler. How could anyone do that?

“Not in my wildest dream did I imagine all of this would happen.”


I take issue with the statement that "reputable breeders should not be deliberately producing mutts." The vast majority of the dogs recognized as "purebred" today started out with some breeder either deliberately crossing one breed with another or deliberately breeding existing mutts that appealed to them to standardize the type. If Lord Tweedmouth had not deliberately bred one breed to a different breed in an attempt to create a dog with the characteristics he desired in a hunting dog, the Golden Retriever would not exist.
Tweedmouth and others lived during a time when things were very different. I don't think people adequately try to understand this.

If they created "mistakes" by what they bred - they were not sold as superior mutts with hybrid vigor or whatnot. They were culled.

These were also people who were not set on breeding a new breed overnight with rapid results.

The dogs they produced were show dogs and hunting dogs. They served a more specific purpose than just being bred by the bunch for anyone who wanted a "statement" dog.


Likewise, back then people did not know what they know today about all of the diseases and genetic conditions which these dogs inherit. This means that with reputable breeders within goldens or poodles, you have a lot of people worrying their heads off about whether a young dog is going to pass his clearances. This while he is being shown or prepped for competition.

Back then during the 19th century, I hate to think about what they did to dogs who turned out badly.... :frown2: But I guarantee you did not have the same concern about caring for a crippled or ailing dog for years.

With today's sensibilities about caring for pets long term, no matter what happens... and breeders being on the record for wanting to improve the health and welfare of the dogs they breed and differentiate themselves from puppy mills here in the US or the worse ones abroad.... The stuff that these mutt breeders, backyard breeders, fad breeders and all the others birds of the same feather are doing is really bad and inexcusable.
 

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Ok, I'm going to take an unpopular stance here...

First, let me say up front that I agree that the majority of breeders producing doodles of any mix (or any "designer" breed) are likely irresponsible breeders who are in it for the almighty buck, and anyone who wants to buy a breed of that mix needs to acknowledge that they are spending big bucks for a mutt that was likely from poorly bred parents. THAT SAID....

I take issue with the statement that "reputable breeders should not be deliberately producing mutts." The vast majority of the dogs recognized as "purebred" today started out with some breeder either deliberately crossing one breed with another or deliberately breeding existing mutts that appealed to them to standardize the type. If Lord Tweedmouth had not deliberately bred one breed to a different breed in an attempt to create a dog with the characteristics he desired in a hunting dog, the Golden Retriever would not exist.

The man credited with breeding the first labradoodle did it for a very specific reason: He was working as breeding manager at the Royal Guide Dog Association of Australia when he was asked to find a dog for an American couple unable to find an appropriate pet. The woman had vision problems and required a guide dog, such as a labrador, but her husband was allergic to animal hair. As a solution, the breeder crossbred a Labrador retriever with a standard poodle, which does not shed its hair. Although he came to regret his role in helping to create the "designer dog" fad, the fact remains that it was an intentional breeding by a "reputable" breeder for a particular purpose. Had the resulting cross proved to be a superior guide dog, they might not now be the focus of such contempt among hobby breeders. Even today, the Guide Dogs for the Blind's breeding program includes golden/lab crosses, I assume because these crosses produce dogs that serve a particular need in their program.

In an effort to make sure that friends who want doodles have the best chance of getting a healthy dog, I've done a fair amount of cruising through doodle breeder websites. There DO seem to be breeders who truly love this combination and are doing all the same health screenings that are recommended by the parent breed clubs. They are also studying the genetics as they move into the 2nd and 3rd generations, and, I believe, working on a breed standard to standardize what is means to be a "whatever doodle." Are we to criticize these breeders along with the "greeders," just because we personally don't like their breed?

What would all of you say to Lord Tweedmouth today if he was using your beloved breed to develop a "better" version?
I think the difference there, is that there is no purpose to breeding any of these doodles. Whether it be a labradoodle, aussiedoodle, bernedoodle, etc. They are bred as pets, to be companions and that is not a true purpose. If someone wants a dog with a non-shedding coat they should do their research and look at established breeds. Why doesn't anyone ever look at the poodle,or barbet or lagotto romagnolo if they really want that kind of coat?
 

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I think the difference there, is that there is no purpose to breeding any of these doodles. Whether it be a labradoodle, aussiedoodle, bernedoodle, etc. They are bred as pets, to be companions and that is not a true purpose. If someone wants a dog with a non-shedding coat they should do their research and look at established breeds. Why doesn't anyone ever look at the poodle,or barbet or lagotto romagnolo if they really want that kind of coat?



100% agree with this and in fact was about to write virtually the same thing before reading your response. The point is back then, the people mixing breeds was to create a new breed for a purpose such as hunting, tracking, pointing or guarding. They bred to create a dog with a functional coat for the work they will be doing. They bred these dogs with specific jobs in mind and bred responsibly with thought/care of long term health in mind. Today there is really no one mixing breeds to do a job or have a true purpose where there isn't already a breed for that job. So the point is these people today aren't breeding to create a new breed for anything but profit and 90% (arbitrary number on my part) of them likely have no clue or care for long term health.


So to me the argument that "This is how we got all of the breeds we have today is by mixing to create a new breed" is insulting to me and I would venture to bet a lot of other people. Most of these people have no idea how to create another breed and how to breed different breeds to get the functional attributes such as coat type, ear size, structure and body type, if it's a sight or scent dog. They also do not understand how long it takes to get a new breed recognized by the main kennel clubs like AKC. It usually take decades.
 

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We had a neighbor, years ago, that had a golden doodle. I’m not sure where they got her. But she basically looked exactly like a golden retriever. So how they can advertise hypoallergenic or non shedding, they have no way to know what the pups will end up being. Just a mix of two breeds, pups can look like either parent or a mix of both. No guarentee to get the best traits from each parent.
 

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I think the difference there, is that there is no purpose to breeding any of these doodles. Whether it be a labradoodle, aussiedoodle, bernedoodle, etc. They are bred as pets, to be companions and that is not a true purpose. If someone wants a dog with a non-shedding coat they should do their research and look at established breeds. Why doesn't anyone ever look at the poodle,or barbet or lagotto romagnolo if they really want that kind of coat?
100% agree with this and in fact was about to write virtually the same thing before reading your response. The point is back then, the people mixing breeds was to create a new breed for a purpose such as hunting, tracking, pointing or guarding. They bred to create a dog with a functional coat for the work they will be doing. They bred these dogs with specific jobs in mind and bred responsibly with thought/care of long term health in mind. Today there is really no one mixing breeds to do a job or have a true purpose where there isn't already a breed for that job. So the point is these people today aren't breeding to create a new breed for anything but profit and 90% (arbitrary number on my part) of them likely have no clue or care for long term health.


So to me the argument that "This is how we got all of the breeds we have today is by mixing to create a new breed" is insulting to me and I would venture to bet a lot of other people. Most of these people have no idea how to create another breed and how to breed different breeds to get the functional attributes such as coat type, ear size, structure and body type, if it's a sight or scent dog. They also do not understand how long it takes to get a new breed recognized by the main kennel clubs like AKC. It usually take decades.

Also agree with both. The other thing to remember about people like Tweedmouth is that they were looking at the entire picture. He wasn't just trying to create a great hunting dog - he wanted a dog who could retrieve water fowl (therefore have a certain shaped head and soft mouth), who would be protected from the elements (double coat, quick to dry), be able to swim (webbed feet), but which would be a good companion to live with a family (Golden personality, friendly, easy to train), and would be calm enough at the end of the day to lie by the fire (good off switch). If he got ONE puppy like that in a litter, yes, the rest were likely culled - not sold as volatile, unpredictable pets. He was not in it for a quick fix to the need he felt existed - it probably took decades, and several generations, to accomplish what he was aiming for. And in the meantime, he was not putting out the not-quite-what-he-was-aiming fors out into the world with the promise they would be great family companions and hunting dogs.
 

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Wally Conron's dogs were originally bred generations and generations ago (early 80s) to serve a specific purpose, which was to be highly intelligent, friendly, therapy dogs. I'm sure that whenConron made his deliberate crosses he didn't have the SLIGHTEST idea that 'doodles' would blow up and morph into what they are today. It is disheartening that the vast majority of breeders that are producing these dogs have little to no regard to the integrity, the standard and the purpose that Conron had hoped for.

The only salvation of Conron's initial efforts is that there is an Australian Labradoodle Club of America, which has a registry, a breed standard, a code of ethics, and aims to one day produce a recognized breed. They also differentiate themselves from any other 'doodle' cross.

My parents have an Australian Labradoodle. She is incredibly smart. She has a stunning coat, that is silky, yet wavy, not hard to groom, not 'frizzy' and she came from fully health tested parents going back 5 generations. She is the only Australian Labradoodle I have ever met, although my parents are in contact with her sibling's parents and they all say they same about their dogs.

Now, do I think that all doodles share those qualities? Absolutely not. That is abundantly clear, and unfortunately, the average buyer does not do nearly enough research (if any) to find out any of the truths about goldendoodle fad breeders. This, as far as I know is as close as any doodle 'breed' has ever come to being legitimate/ethical/reputable, and there are not many of them.
 

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Doodle breeders if they knew anything know that their dogs are a mistake. But hey lets make a few bucks.

I've know quite a few doodles and they are as bright as a retarded hamster smoking meth.

Lord Tweed Had a purpose. People these days just put 2 dogs together for a buck.
I also remember reading that one of the main reasons to mixing the dogs was to breed out the health issues but in fact the resulting dogs inherited both breeds health issues. That a alone should expose the breeding only for profit as if the were breeding properly with health in mind, they would have stopped breeding once the increased health issues we realized.
 

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Interesting thing to report after browsing the labradoodle club website. It's basically a good idea - but I see people using them to legitimize what they are doing.

Among else, found puppy mills using that website to advertise. Actually, one of those puppy mills had better looking and more legit looking dogs than the small hobby breeder websites also using the website to advertize.

One hobby breeder website had a lot of "Australian Labradoodle" dogs that were registered, their elbows were "negative" (LOL), and more than though - I looked at each of those dogs and could easily guess the different mix.

Some of them were clearly mixed with goldens, some were clearly mixed with some kind of spaniel - in fact, I think there were at least 3 different spaniel breeds used in the mixes. The one consistent thing was the fact that they were all definitely poodle mixes.

That's what I was talking about before. It's just all these people breeding anything and everything together.... and they call it something different to make them look better. :(

It's nice that they are doing full clearances and doing some form of registration to keep track of pedigrees... but they've got a long way to go before becoming a registered AKC breed. If that's even what they plan on doing. There was no mention of that on the club website - probably because they would have to close the books.
 

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Ugh. Just ugh. I feel your pain. About a year ago, some good friends of ours were starting their search for a new puppy. They had fallen head over heels in love with our Goldens and we were under the impression that they were planning on getting a Golden puppy. They asked us all kinds of questions, like what to look for in a breeder and various other questions. We even referred them our breeder, who is a wonderful, very well-respected and well-known breeder. I also gave them the names of some other reputable breeders in our region so that they could have a few options. Then, one evening, I got a Facebook message from this friend and she told me that they had found a puppy and were so excited. She then sent me a picture of the mother, who was a Golden, and then came the picture of the father......a Bernese Mountain Dog....:doh: :doh: :doh: She was going on and on about how wonderful this breeder is and that she is very responsible just because she works for one of the local vets....:doh:. They call this dog a "Golden Berner" (insert eye roll here). And guess how much they paid for this "designer" dog??? $1250!!!!! Honest to god, if you want a mixed breed, go to a shelter or a rescue organization! There are PLENTY of mixed breeds there waiting for loving homes. It just infuriates me how people support these irresponsible and unethical "breeders," which encourage them to continue pumping out these mixed breed puppies and selling them for ridiculous amounts of money.
 

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I'm sorry that I hurt anyone's feelings. I do sincerely apologize if I insulted you. That was NOT my intention.
I just wanted to express my frustration about poor breeding practices, which causes harm to all our dogs. It's never the dogs fault. I've had mutts all my life - purebred dogs are new to me and perhaps I have the 'zeal of the newly converted'.
What I can tell you about rescue mutts is that they have many if not more issues than purebred. Neglect, disability, difficult behaviour, inherited health issues - all creates massive issues for rescue dogs too.
They're wonderful individuals, and absolutely worthy of time and effort and love and understanding - but should they have been bred in the first place *for money*?
I dont believe so.
When I had the chance to introduce a dog to our family with small children, I went for a purebred with a breed standard that stipulates gentleness.
I'm sorry if I wasn't gentle in my explanation of why crossbreeds as 'designer' dogs is - in my opinion - a bad idea.
 

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Not to open a can or worms (I know, too late), but just something to consider.....

Last night I watched the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show. I so enjoy seeing all the different kinds of breeds that I don't often get to see. Love the different coats, colors, sizes and temperaments.

The one thing I noticed in the descriptions of these dogs is how each breed was "created". I noticed many of the larger hunting dogs have "Griffons" in their lineage. The Wirehaired Pointing Griffon and the Brussels Griffons were bred to have their wire coats so they can perform better in the water. Also, many of the breeds had Schnauzer in their lineage for different reasons.

So, I decided to do a bit of research on Golden Retrievers. I read the following description from different sources where Lord Tweedmouth in Scotland, who was looking to create a dog for hunting, specifically fowl. (He is generally credited with starting the Golden Retriever.)

To accomplish this, he crossed a Wavy-Coated Retriever with a Tweed Water Spaniel. The result was four puppies with excellent bird-hunting abilities. Later, the yellow Wavy-Coated Retriever was cross-bred with Bloodhounds, black retrievers, setters, and Tweed Spaniels. This crossbreeding produced dogs with similar characteristics but with a distinct yellow flat coat. Some of these dogs entered the United States in the early 1900s with Lord Tweedmouth’s sons, and in 1912, they were formally recognized as the Golden (or Yellow) Retriever. This breed has since gained much popularity in America.

I guess ALL of our breeds come from somewhere, bred down and crossed, for the convenience of people. Shudder to think that someday, a "doodle" will be a breed unto itself??? But of course, they will give it a different name; something more sophisticated. I imagine the judges of Westminster cringe at the thought now, but who knows 25 years from now. :smile2:
 

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A friend of mine posted this article on Facebook today.


A Designer Dog-Maker Regrets His Creation

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/canine-corner/201404/designer-dog-maker-regrets-his-creation?fbclid=IwAR00WD9J8B0gOTDXeY1fMmJnw8SBfGeyS7Skw7wqEozL0-x8WFnc2agNRQ4



I was in the lobby of a hotel in Toronto waiting to be picked up and taken to the venue where I was scheduled to give a talk. A well-dressed middle-aged woman was standing nearby with a sand-colored curly-haired dog. As I bent down to give the dog a friendly pat, she announced to me, "Molly is a purebred Labradoodle, just like the one that Jennifer Aniston has."
It amazes me how intelligent people can refer to an intentionally crossbred dog, such as the Labradoodle, as "purebred." The Labradoodle is a cross between the Labrador Retriever and the Poodle. It avoids the negative label of "mutt" or "mongrel" because it is a deliberate crossbreeding, and those who market such pups have come to refer to them as "designer dogs," a label designed to give them a hint of sophistication and elitism. There are many designer dogs now available and the majority involve crossbreeding Poodles with other breeds. Perhaps the earliest of these appeared in the 1950s, and it was the Cockapoo, a Cocker Spaniel/Poodle cross, which never achieved much popularity. Nowadays one can find a Goldendoodle (Golden Retriever/Poodle), Schnoodle (Miniature Schnauzer/Poodle), Cavoodles (Cavalier King Charles Spaniel/Poodle), Roodles (Rottweiller/Poodle), Yorkiepoo (Yorkshire Terrier/Poodle), Shihpoo (Shih Tzu/Poodle), Maltipoo (Maltese/Poodle), Poochon (Bichon Frise/Poodle), Lhasapoo (Lhasa Apso/Poodle) to name a few. Although there are other designer dog crosses, the Poodle is frequently entered into the mix in order to provide a non-shedding coat quality and a presumed hypoallergenic trait to the resultant pups.


Wally Conron
Source: Wally Conran, used with permission



I was fortunate enough to be able to interview Wally Conron a few years ago—the very man credited with the creation of the Labradoodle. Conron was the puppy breeding manager for the Royal Guide Dog Association of Australia in the 1980s when his boss set him a difficult task. A blind woman from Hawaii had written to ask if they could provide a guide dog that would not shed hair, because her husband was allergic to it. To quote Conron, "I said, 'Oh yes, this will be a piece of cake. The Standard Poodle is a working dog; it doesn't shed hair so it'll be great.' I tried 33 dogs in the course of three years and they all failed. They just didn't make the grade as guide dogs. Meanwhile, the woman in Hawaii was getting older and my boss was getting on my back."
Desperation drove Conron to consider an alternate course of action. The upshot was that he took his best female Labrador Retriever and mated it with a Standard Poodle. This resulted in a litter of three pups. With a long waiting list for people wishing to foster guide dog puppies, Conron was sure that he'd have no problem placing their three new crossbred dogs with a family to be trained and socialized before being enlisted in the guide dog program. Unfortunately, nobody would take them since everyone wanted a purebred dog. So that's when Conron came up with the name Labradoodle. According to him, "I went to our PR team and said, 'Go to the press and tell them we've invented a new dog, the Labradoodle.' It was a gimmick, and it went worldwide. It worked—during the weeks that followed, our switchboard was inundated with calls from potential dog fostering homes, other guide-dog centres, vision-impaired people and people allergic to dog hair who wanted to know more about this 'wonder dog.'"
Conron immediately discovered that since the Labradoodle is a hybrid and not a pure breed, the resulting puppies did not have consistently predictable characteristics. Although all Labradoodles have some common traits, their appearance, working-ability, and behavioral characteristics remain somewhat unpredictable. Even in the nature of their coat—the reason why the Poodle was originally part of the mix—there is lots of variability. Labradoodles' coats can vary from wiry to soft, and they may be curly, wavy, or straight. Straight-coated Labradoodles are said to have "hair" coats, wavy-coated dogs have "fleece" coats, and curly-coated dogs have "wool" coats. Many Labradoodles do shed, although the coat usually sheds less and has less dog odor than that of a Labrador Retriever. In the Labradoodle, there is also no certainty that the dog will be hypoallergenic. Conrad explains that the raison d'être for having these crosses in the first place was to prevent allergy symptoms, and that characteristic cannot be guaranteed by simply creating a Poodle cross. He complains, "This is what gets up my nose, if you'll pardon the expression. When the pups were five-months old, we sent clippings and saliva over to Hawaii to be tested with this woman's husband. Of the three pups, he was not allergic to one of them. In the next litter I had, there were 10 pups, but only three had non-allergenic coats. Now, people are breeding these dogs and selling them as non-allergenic, and they're not even testing them!"
He continues his lament saying, "Get on the internet and verify it for yourself. All these backyard breeders have jumped on the bandwagon, and they're crossing any kind of dog with a poodle. They're selling them for more than a purebred is worth and they're not going into the backgrounds of the parents of the dogs. There are so many poodle crosses having fits, problems with their eyes, hips and elbows, and a lot have epilepsy. There are a few ethical breeders, but very very few.
"I opened a Pandora's box, that's what I did. I released a Frankenstein. So many people are just breeding for the money. So many of these dogs have physical problems, and a lot of them are just crazy.
"You know that American president Obama announced he was thinking of getting a Labradoodle. So I wrote him a letter saying what the pitfalls were. I said 'If you are going to buy a Labradoodle, check both of the parents, make sure they have a certificate. A lot of them are untrainable, and a lot of them are no good for people with allergies.' I don't know if he was listening to me but he didn't get one in the end.
"Today I am internationally credited as the first person to breed the Labradoodle. People ask me 'Aren't you proud of yourself?' I tell them 'No! Not in the slightest.' I've done so much harm to pure breeding and made so many charlatans quite rich. I wonder, in my retirement, whether we bred a designer dog—or a disaster!"
I finished my interview with him by asking if he has ever kept a Labradoodle as a pet. "No way!" he told me in a shocked tone of voice. "My dogs are Labrador Retrievers—Rocky and Jazz. I only ever bred 31 Labradoodles. I'm on a pension and live in a little shoebox flat. If I'd gone into breeding Labradoodles for a living, I'd be on easy street. But there was no way I'd do it. My conscience wouldn't let me."
 

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I know I shouldn't, but.... Watterdog, what's going on here?
Tweedmouth bred his dogs for a distinct working purpose. They were bread to sit quietly in the cold wet Scottish hunting blind in the autumn, follow their owners, sight the gun, watch the fowl fall, run out and collect it - without eating it or damaging it, then do the same thing again and again for hours. Then go home and be good with the kids.
They were also made a true new breed, because they breed 'true'. If you mate 2 goldens, you get a golden.
What is the purpose of a goldendoodle? There isn't one that I can see.
They don't breed true - breed 2 goldendoodles, and out if a litter of 4 puppies, you'll most likely get 1 who looks like a poodle, one who looks like a golden, and two who look like something in-between....
They are not a true breed, and will never be due to the fact that they're simply bred for a quick buck as a fashionable hybrid, and sold to people who don't know any better.
 

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...and don't get me started on the 'Bull-Shihtz' or 'Jack-Shihtz'.. Yes, apparently these are "Designer Dogs", and that is a "Thing"...
Dunning Kruger effect, anyone?
 

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...and don't get me started on the 'Bull-Shihtz' or 'Jack-Shihtz'.. Yes, apparently these are "Designer Dogs", and that is a "Thing"...
Dunning Kruger effect, anyone?
Oh good grief! Those I hadn't heard of yet. Why would you want your dog's "breed" to sound like cussing!? I certainly wouldn't want you telling my child you have a Bull-s***! I thought the "Dorkie" I used to groom was about the worst one I'd heard, but these top that by far-at least Dorkie wasn't a cuss word!
 

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Not to open a can or worms (I know, too late), but just something to consider.....

Last night I watched the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show. I so enjoy seeing all the different kinds of breeds that I don't often get to see. Love the different coats, colors, sizes and temperaments.

The one thing I noticed in the descriptions of these dogs is how each breed was "created". I noticed many of the larger hunting dogs have "Griffons" in their lineage. The Wirehaired Pointing Griffon and the Brussels Griffons were bred to have their wire coats so they can perform better in the water. Also, many of the breeds had Schnauzer in their lineage for different reasons.

So, I decided to do a bit of research on Golden Retrievers. I read the following description from different sources where Lord Tweedmouth in Scotland, who was looking to create a dog for hunting, specifically fowl. (He is generally credited with starting the Golden Retriever.)

To accomplish this, he crossed a Wavy-Coated Retriever with a Tweed Water Spaniel. The result was four puppies with excellent bird-hunting abilities. Later, the yellow Wavy-Coated Retriever was cross-bred with Bloodhounds, black retrievers, setters, and Tweed Spaniels. This crossbreeding produced dogs with similar characteristics but with a distinct yellow flat coat. Some of these dogs entered the United States in the early 1900s with Lord Tweedmouth’s sons, and in 1912, they were formally recognized as the Golden (or Yellow) Retriever. This breed has since gained much popularity in America.

I guess ALL of our breeds come from somewhere, bred down and crossed, for the convenience of people. Shudder to think that someday, a "doodle" will be a breed unto itself??? But of course, they will give it a different name; something more sophisticated. I imagine the judges of Westminster cringe at the thought now, but who knows 25 years from now. :smile2:

You're not opening a can of worms. It's part of this discussion, earlier in the thread. And it's an argument people have tried to make for years in favour of doodles.
 

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My thing with labradoodles are most are coming from backyard breeders who are popping puppies out at unforsaken amounts without regard to the mother. Or any of the breeds. Slap a $950-1300 price tag on the dog and it suddenly becomes “pure” because of the price. There’s no regard for health or temperament of the dam/sire. I’ve encountered both labs and poodles with aggression issues more than most people would like to admit. Labs can be some of the nastiest dogs if they aren’t trained or bred carefully. There’s one at my dog training club who about went psychotic when my puppy walked by slowly. Not in the kennel area it’s supposed to be in. I can’t even imagine if that dog was bred to a lab let alone a poodle with possible aggression issues. I know of a doodle who presented with some aggression issues towards strangers mid-life.

And what boggles my mind is people who say, “Oh you can’t be allergic to a doodle. It’s hypo-allergenic hair.” Yeah right. Put someone with a dog allergy next to one and they’ll be in respiratory distress within 10 minutes. I’ve watched it! Awful.
 

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Kate
Joined
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21,058 Posts
Labs can be some of the nastiest dogs if they aren’t trained or bred carefully. There’s one at my dog training club who about went psychotic when my puppy walked by slowly.
It's the cost of being the most popular dog per AKC.

AKC isn't doing a poll on which dogs people like the most.

Their yearly list is based on registrations.

Labs are at the top because more people are breeding them, and more pups are getting registered and being bred down the road. That's a lot of puppy mills, backyard breeders, commercial breeders - and all kinds of dogs just randomly being bred.

Shelters and rescues are full of these dogs for 2 reasons - just litters produced whether or not there are buyers and the dogs have problems (health or temperament). Doing all the doodle breeding is another facet of that. :(

And now you have people getting into the act with goldens since the protections which even bad golden breeders use to limit breeding by pet owners goes out the window when you have somebody who doesn't care whether the dogs have papers or not.

And these dogs are bred to poodles who likewise have a reputation for being snappish and nasty towards other dogs, especially the miniature poodles. Miniature poodles are frequently obedience dogs because they are manageable sizes, very athletic, and smart. But they growl and snap at people and dogs alike sometimes.
 
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