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So.... You come to a Golden Retriever forum, and you read a little. You don't seem to appreciate why we really love this specific breed and why they are special dogs (for starters, the only ones with a temperament clause in their breed standard!), and you think it's ok for Muppets to cross breed any old Poodle with 'my lovely golden (ish)' and it's ok to make 'goldendoodles' because there's a demand? Poodles are REALLY smart dogs - for Poodle enthusiasts! (They're cool, maybe a bit like us, but fuzzier ;0)
Encouraging the whole 'cross breed as a designer dog' thing is a terrible idea for the welfare of dogs in general.
Whilst hybrid vigour is definitely a thing, breeding matters for dogs, for their long term heath, because they've been so horribly manipulated genetically in the past.
Thinking that a cross breed will produce a superior dog is just stupidity. It's just as likely to produce a very ill and disabled dog.
Why would you knowingly do that? Well - you wouldn't, would you? So anyone who does, is either stupid, or doesn't care....
 

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Kate
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I have friends with Goldendoodles, who just love them. They shed, but not as much. They (generally) have the sweet disposition of a golden, and very intelligent mind of a poodle. Plus, many golden owners have gone the "doodle route" because of the high amount of cancer in the Golden world.
The doodles that I've met in person are more like poodles. I don't really see golden retriever looks or temperament in them. They are poodle mixes. You have to like poodles in order to appreciate them.

This even includes grooming. The coats are GROSS.

A former boss had a doodle who would be allowed to come into the office to visit us generally any time of the day. Coat was caked with oils and matted. If you pulled the hairs apart to get a look at the skin - you couldn't find the skin because it was just solid mats close to the skin. They don't shed as much because it all sticks in there and mats!

This was somebody who was a yuppy and took great care of his dog - but assumed the dog only needed a groomed every couple months.

And I do not see people with doodles doing obedience with them - so what does that tell you about their intelligence and trainability?


And health? I now know of 2 doodles who died at or before the age of 10 from cancer. This wasn't hemangio (yay?). This was brain cancer. The second doodle was actually a goldendoodle adopted from a shelter for ten bucks. Prior owners dropped him because the kids were allergic to him. He was just 7.
 

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Several years ago, I visited a friend of a friend that professionally trains services dogs, and had some 6 week old puppies that needed more visitors (my kids were little at the time, so it was a win/win visit). I had just lost my first golden to cancer (osteosarcoma) at 13.5, and was still pretty devastated after only a few months without him. She was breeding and raising labs, so I mentioned about how I kept hearing about Goldendoodles and how wonderful they were. She stopped in her tracks and was very adamant about what a disaster this pairing was, and went into much detail that I sadly don't remember. But I do remember how she literally stopped what she was doing with the puppies and kids to give me her opinion on Goldendoodles, which was very negative.

I've only known 3 myself (1 on the Central Coast of CA, the other 2 around here in Northern CA): all three look like long-haired poodles, none had the sweet temperament of any other golden I've known, all 3 were very stubborn, difficult to house-train and train in general. All 3 sets of owners have complained to me about how frustrated they are with their dogs, and just don't understand why they aren't as sweet-tempered as any of our Goldens. I honestly don't know what to say: my heart goes out to them, but every single one talked about how much their dogs cost (more than our dear Barkley, who I JUST FLEW TO CANADA TO PICK UP!) and how "wonderful" the breeders other dogs were, and they just had to have a "hypoallergenic" dog b/c someone in the family had allergies...

My heart broke in again when we lost our second golden to cancer just 4.5 after adopting him as an adult, but I love this breed with all my heart, so I buckled down, did a ridiculous amount of research, and 1.5 years after starting all the research and looking for the right breeder for us (and adopting another senior golden (of indeterminate age) with health issues in the meantime), we have our B. There are no guarantees in life - I get that. But I feel good about the choice I made in our breeder, and every. Single. Day with B, I see all the work that our breeder put into his lines so that we ended up with a sweet-tempered, easy-to-train, smart, gorgeous golden retriever.

I just don't get the "Goldendoodle" or "whatever-doodle" fad: none of them can hold a candle to any golden retriever I've ever met.
 

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My brother has a Goldendoodle and I love that dog. He's a quirky, sweet boy. I don't presume to judge other's decisions on the type of dog they want to get. And I don't presume that just because a dog is "mixed" that it is any "less"...
 

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My brother has a Goldendoodle and I love that dog. He's a quirky, sweet boy. I don't presume to judge other's decisions on the type of dog they want to get. And I don't presume that just because a dog is "mixed" that it is any "less"...

I totally agree 100% but I don't think it's about the dog but the people who breed the 2 breeds together for profit with no concern for the long term health of the puppies they create. I think that is what the issue is. People want what they want for a variety of reasons. The issue I believe for most on this topic is that of people mixing breeds for the sole purpose to make profit.
 

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Kate
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I love my neighbor's pitbull mix and the other neighbor's cockapoo. Both are very nice dogs. Or were? Haven't talked to the pitbull mix owners in a few months and haven't seen her around.

Where did they come from?

Cockapoo from a petstore.

Pitbull-lab-boxer-other-things mix came from a rescue who had pulled her out of a kill shelter when she was a puppy. <= Her owners got her the same time I got my Jacks. The pups were playmates growing up - same as Jacks was buddies with the minpin next door.

I like dogs and generally like most of the dogs I meet going around the neighborhood - except the nasty sharpei that I won't go into. This particularly includes the different golden people.

Do I know where they come from?

Nope.

Do I care?

No, not at all.

I chat with or wave at people in passing and don't really look at their dogs as anything more than they are. They are beloved pets. A doodle is no different from a lab mix or hound mix.

Do I like the fact that people are deliberately breeding mutts for crazy prices? No. :( I think it's irresponsible. Supporting it is irresponsible as well.

Doodles - are being pitched as a mutt-breed for everyone, but especially families with little kids. And unfortunately those families are also going to be the ones who do not have time to groom the dogs or money to have them professionally groomed every 3-4 weeks aside from clipping the coats off.

I think this is irresponsible.

Are there some mixed breeds I support? NO.

Are there some that I understand? No.

Are there some breeds I REALLY DON'T LIKE? Absolutely, but that doesn't mean that I think they should be mixed with something else to make them more likable.

If you don't like something about a breed? Don't get em. Look at a different breed.

Mixing breeds like hounds and labs and poodles - is tough, because a lot of these mixes are already out there.

Hound mixes? Egad. There was a rescue event I went to a while back and it was all beagles, bassets, and bigger hounds - a lot of hunting dogs that were either puppies or dumped adults. <= My mom grew up with a beagle (and other dogs) so she was heartbroken walking around and seeing all these dogs, the beagles especially. If rescues allowed impulse buys - one would have happened there with my mom.

All those dogs needing homes... gets blamed on breeders like the ones I bought my dogs from. However - it's completely different.

My Jovi - the litter had like 20 people on a waiting list waiting for almost 2 years before the litter happened.

But even other breeders like a friend of mine who owns 3-4 girls with all their clearances... she breeds them when they come into season... I don't know how soon she starts building her waiting lists since she's breeding more frequently... but I do know that by the time she formally announces a litter in the works, all the puppies are already spoken for.

Most golden breeders have long waiting lists and some are pretty protective about who they will sell puppies to. This includes keeping their eyes open for fishy business and sharing it around with other breeders.

Doodle breeders generally are the fishy business which people are watching out for and warning others about.

It's somebody's business whether they breed mutts for profit while lying to puppy buyers about what they are getting in a dog. It's the same type of thing that I see with people in goldens who are breeding dogs that have nothing to qualify them being bred (talking physically - both breed standard and health certs) - this while they are charging a lot and making deceptive claims. Sometimes you hope they are just ignorant of what all needs to be done besides buying breeding dogs and setting up a website or facebook page to advertise from, but at this time with people iin the breed talking until they are blue in the face - there's no real likelihood of them simply not knowing better. :(

Doodle breeders are the same people as that. It's the same slick selling schemes and fast talking and pushy salesmanship - all designed to get people to open their wallets.

These are the things that bother me the most - particularly since I know a lot of very nice and passionate people within the breed (goldens) from conformation to obedience to field to agility. And there may be splits all over the place, but all these people get together when ti comes to doing the right thing by these dogs. That's full clearances, that's selective breeding, that's not buying more and more dogs to breed just so you are constantly producing product to sell (nobody in their right mind when it comes to being decent would have 40+ breeding dogs kept in a kennel and bred whenever they are in season left and right). Just like nobody who has any intention of becoming a very highly respected and well known breeder, would sit down and start breeding mixed breeds.

A lot of people are skipping over some of the uglier stuff with mixed breed breeders, backyard breeders, puppy mills, and people who use brokers or ship dogs around to be sold in petstores.

They also are skipping over the practical parts of dog shopping - or what people should be doing when looking for their next dog.

They should not be just looking for cute, different, etc....

They have to learn about the breeds and put a lot of serious thought into whether they are an ideal home for these breeds.

With goldens - I overshare the crazy stuff my dogs do and have done (while they are very good dogs!) - because I hate the fact that people think these dogs are automatically trained or easy to train. People in other breeds think that.

But that doesn't come close to understanding a lot of the breeds which the mutt breeders are mixing with poodles.

And actually selecting these breeders and buying puppies from them is paying them to continue doing what they are doing, including the deceptive advertising and irresponsible throwing anything together. And there's no accountability ever with these mutt-mutts, because no breed standard + no organized breed club that anyone belongs to, etc....
 

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My brother has a Goldendoodle and I love that dog. He's a quirky, sweet boy. I don't presume to judge other's decisions on the type of dog they want to get. And I don't presume that just because a dog is "mixed" that it is any "less"...
I wasn't inferring Goldendoodles/or doodle mixes were less; for me, the mixes just aren't the same as Goldens, and we can't expect them to have the same characteristics as a dog breed to have those characteristics. I'm sure there are many lovely Goldendoodles out there; I haven't met them yet. And I'd take a golden retriever, with whatever issues, over any other dog any day, twice on Sunday :grin2:
 

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I have a mini Goldendoodle and he is amazing. I also have 3 Goldens and they will always own my heart. Duddy and 2 goldens are rescues and the Princess is from a breeder. Duddy is scary smart, sweet, happy, joyful and believes everyone should be having fun. All my dogs do sports and very smart, easy and fun to train but Duddy has it all over them. I totally get your feelings about "designer" dogs, but every dog is an individual and I know quite a few doodles and they are great dogs. Please don't blame the dog because of the greedy a ?breeder? Wish you could meet Duddy, he's an awesome dog. It's also nice to have 1 "scoopable" dog in the house too!

Can't stop greed but don't blame the dogs, puppy mills churn out goldens. :(
 

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Kate
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Nobody blames the dogs.

We blame the breeders for the most part.

And people who support those breeders.

Doodles are cute mutts. Mini doodles have been around a long time. They are called cockapoos.

Back when Bertie was in puppy classes - saw this cockapoo being trained by an older woman (in her 70's, I think). Perfect dog, very smart, was ideal for this person.

She had adopted this dog from a rescue.

To this day - I honestly don't know anyone who has bought a cockapoo from a breeder. They are all coming from rescues.

That's the future of doodles once the fad blows over. We're already going that way with more and more doodles showing up in shelters and rescues. This is what happens when people buy poorly bred dogs from bad breeders. Most people love their dogs anyway and sharp instruments come out in defense of everything about their dogs. But when anyone can buy dogs and breeders are motivated to sell to anyone, it's long stretch bad for the dogs.

This is why we all need to support good breeders - and people who are not just breeding for the moment or for the sale.

My personal thing aside from all that is - the Poodle Club of America is at fault for allowing all of this to happen to their breed. The poodle breeders have not worked hard enough to crack down on just anyone buying poodles from them. And even limited registration is not enough discouragement (some people say limited registration when selling to anyone works because people "can't breed"), because nobody is thinking about producing a purebred dog to be registered with AKC.

With poodles being bred to anything and everything - it's just awful for that breed!

I don't personally want goldens to become like that. That's the gut feeling of every protective breeder out there who have been plagued by purchase requests from people who want to breed mutts.

If you wonder why golden breeders (reputable, legit ones) are so micromanaging and beyond difficult to buy a puppy from - this is one of many reasons why. People in general don't mind lying to a breeder's face.

Poodle breeders need to start cracking down and becoming uber protective of what they breed like that and more since the problem is so widespread.

And this involves all breeds since these doodle breeders are literally breeding to anything.
 

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The term "designer dog" is dumb. They are not designer, they are mixed breeds. It is no different than if the neighbor's blue tick hound jumped the fence and the golden retriever there got pregnant. Would the puppies be bluedens, golden ticks, etc. Someone woudl come up with a name and sell them as unique.


One of the most interesting mixes I ever saw was about 12 or so years ago and it was a golden retriever, shar pei mix and his name was Frankie. The owner had two of the shar pei (not sure of spelling) and then Frankei, that he adopted. Frankie was just the sweetest boy and the owner said he was total golden in temperament . The guy used the dogs to raise money for a mental help/physical disability program. I bought a calendar. I think if I could have sneaked that dog in my purse I would hav. He was adorable. He had the wrinkle,s nose, etc of the shar pei, but his coat was so soft, not coarse, and he had golden ears. I woudl have taken him in a heart beat, but never would I breed dogs to come up with his.
 

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So.... You come to a Golden Retriever forum, and you read a little. You don't seem to appreciate why we really love this specific breed and why they are special dogs .......
Wow. I guess you are referring to me in the "you"? Well you certainly put me in MY place, didn't you? But please don't think you know me, or anyone on this forum when you jump to such conclusions, and make such an insulting statement.

I love Goldens and have had them in my life every day for the past 36 years. And I don't just "read a little". I have had my ups, downs and health challenges with these wonderful dogs, along with massive vet bills from cancer, and recently vaccine "side effects", and cancelled vacations to be with our dogs, ALL well worth it. We have rescued abused and sick Goldens, and tried to give them the best life possible for the time they had left. We have always had at least 2 Goldens in our lives at a time, because we appreciate how much these dogs love to play, run, and have the companion of a "pal". Each has had their own special personality and "quirks". Every dog is special, every dog is wonderful. So please don't tell me that I "read a little".

But I am not so closed minded as to think that not everyone agrees with me. Some don't want to tolerate the shedding, and many people have allergies. I only said if someone wants to have a "doodle", I understand why they may make that choice. As long as they give it a good and loving home, fine by me. And I stand by that for every breed and every dog.
 

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Wow. I guess you are referring to me in the "you"? Well you certainly put me in MY place, didn't you? But please don't think you know me, or anyone on this forum when you jump to such conclusions, and make such an insulting statement.

I love Goldens and have had them in my life every day for the past 36 years. And I don't just "read a little". I have had my ups, downs and health challenges with these wonderful dogs, along with massive vet bills from cancer, and recently vaccine "side effects", and cancelled vacations to be with our dogs, ALL well worth it. We have rescued abused and sick Goldens, and tried to give them the best life possible for the time they had left. We have always had at least 2 Goldens in our lives at a time, because we appreciate how much these dogs love to play, run, and have the companion of a "pal". Each has had their own special personality and "quirks". Every dog is special, every dog is wonderful. So please don't tell me that I "read a little".

But I am not so closed minded as to think that not everyone agrees with me. Some don't want to tolerate the shedding, and many people have allergies. I only said if someone wants to have a "doodle", I understand why they may make that choice. As long as they give it a good and loving home, fine by me. And I stand by that for every breed and every dog.
Not all of us think this way. This is not a Pure Bred only Golden Retriever Forum. All are welcome (mixes and pure bred).
 

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Nobody blames the dogs.


Doodles are cute mutts. Mini doodles have been around a long time. They are called cockapoos.
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Thank you, it just sounds like you are blaming the dogs and that so not right. I apologize for misunderstanding.

And Duddy is not a cockapoo, he is a mini golden doodle, more poodle yes but still a golden doodle and I would have another one day, right or wrong they exist and are not going away and they are great, fun dogs. Love my goldens and love my doodle - mutt or not.
 

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With poodles being bred to anything and everything - it's just awful for that breed!

I don't personally want goldens to become like that. That's the gut feeling of every protective breeder out there who have been plagued by purchase requests from people who want to breed mutts.

If you wonder why golden breeders (reputable, legit ones) are so micromanaging and beyond difficult to buy a puppy from - this is one of many reasons why. People in general don't mind lying to a breeder's face.

Poodle breeders need to start cracking down and becoming uber protective of what they breed like that and more since the problem is so widespread.

And this involves all breeds since these doodle breeders are literally breeding to anything.

I agree with all of this but it is so hard to control. I am not sure how you could possibly police it, with backyard breeders and puppy mills. People who want to produce mixed breeds are going to get breeding stock and carry on. The public is fickle - at best. You can try to educate but it seems to haven little affect. Laws preventing "puppy stores" from selling anything but rescue dogs is a step in the right direction. Laws cracking down on mills but it takes forever and most are pathetic and do no good. Sadly stopping cross breeding seems highly unlikely at this time.
 

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Kate
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I agree with all of this but it is so hard to control. I am not sure how you could possibly police it, with backyard breeders and puppy mills. People who want to produce mixed breeds are going to get breeding stock and carry on. The public is fickle - at best. You can try to educate but it seems to haven little affect. Laws preventing "puppy stores" from selling anything but rescue dogs is a step in the right direction. Laws cracking down on mills but it takes forever and most are pathetic and do no good. Sadly stopping cross breeding seems highly unlikely at this time.
REPUTABLE BREEDERS should NOT be deliberately producing mutts.

Laws preventing puppy stores from selling anything but rescue dogs are not fixing anything - because the rescues are going around buying dogs and litters from puppy mills and backyard breeders and selling those puppies in those stores. Any mills or breeders who can't sell puppies directly, have the option to just dump them in rescue

There's stories I've heard with rescues buying up a lot of dogs from puppy mills/hoarders - and 6 months later had multiple litters available for adoption (the timing tells you that the breeding was done by the rescues).

Some people in rescues, might add, have gone down the road as to appear more supportive of puppy mills and backyard breeders... than they are of actual good responsible breeders who don't breed to anything and everything and also do everything they can to keep their dogs out of rescue.

What would go much further to put a stop to puppy mills, mutt breeders, bad breeders, etc... is if people STOP buying from them. And if people stop making excuses for them.

And then the breed clubs should crack down on members to make a stronger statement against people breeding anything with everything.

And AKC should go back to withholding registration completely from mixed breeds and dogs bred without papers. The very least, they should ban breeders for life if they produce mixed breeds and make all their breeding stock ineligible for any registration - affecting any dogs produced by them. Including the mutts.

I'm pretty tired of people preaching at others about rescue this and rescue that - and they are in full support of bad breeders. I get they are thinking about breaking down any barriers people might have about adopting badly bred dogs from them and they feel like they are competing WITH good breeders, but it's bad when it ends up with them fully defending what these breeders are doing.

Anyone who produces mixed breeds on purpose - is a bad breeder.

And to reiterate another thing.

There's people out there who are on the outside looking in. And from their point of view, they think that everything a person like me is saying is all snobbery. This is why people are upset about their dogs being perceived as "less". And they are ignoring the fact that people like me are the SAME WAY about purebred golden breeders who are really awful and misleading the public - though in some ways, I think the mutt breeders are the worst.
 

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Kate
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I don't think "reputable" breeders do. If they are then they are not "reputable".
But the reason why I said it multiple times is there's doodle breeders out there who are very conscious of appearances. They are changing the names of what they breed and for example I just saw a BIZARRE breeder's website shared on facebook along those lines.

Canadian breeder.

Puppy mill.

Hiding the fact they are a puppy mill by plastering "Christian ministries" stuff all over the front page. Don't remember if there were pictures of the dogs, BUT you had all the glossy-weird-prettified pictures of the breeders (like everyone from a church?) wearing their Sunday bests and smiling very nicely for the camera!

It was so WEIRD.

And I think a lot of it was designed to make people think that they are supporting other Christians or a church or something when buying dogs from them? And that is supposed to make them reputable?

^^^ These are the types of things which breeders are doing and it has nothing to do with the quality of the dogs. It's just farming dogs.
 

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Totally agree and it is disgusting, wrong and blatant lying. I can also understand why reputable breeders would be angered and frustrated. Unfortunately the general public is very happy to believe the advertising and are to lazy to do the research and education. Have had many, many conversations, people asking for advice and then doing the opposite. :(
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Go to the embark website and look up the tests for goldens and goldendoodles. There's about twice as many concerns for the doodle. Honestly though, they probably won't listen. I tried to keep my mom from buying her 3rd pet store puppy. Didn't work.
These designer breeds seem to have so many issues. Around here, a majority of doodles come from a local service dog organization. They breed their own labradoodles, goldendoodles and golden lab crosses. They are placing them with children. Can you imagine having a seriously disabled child and a dog that needs so much grooming?
Yeah, that's the other thing. My Aunt & Uncle's oldest son is college age and severely disabled from muscular dystrophy-like he literally can only operate his wheelchair. His parents and younger siblings have to help him get dressed, eat, go to the bathroom, etc. Its really sad. But anyway, that's another reason why I think a high maintenance breed is a terrible idea for their family.
 

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Discussion Starter #40
My brother has a Goldendoodle and I love that dog. He's a quirky, sweet boy. I don't presume to judge other's decisions on the type of dog they want to get. And I don't presume that just because a dog is "mixed" that it is any "less"...
As long as people are going into it with their eyes wide open, knowing the truth- if that's what they want, to each his own. But most people get doodles because they believe the lies. Then the dog suffers because when the promises of a lying breeder can't hold water, the dog ends up in a shelter. The thing is, I KNOW this family. And I KNOW the average doodle would not be a good match for them. Also, I am not saying the dog is less just because it is mixed. The poor dogs can't help it that they were bred. And I have absolutely no problem with people wanting to get a mixed breed from a rescue or shelter. What I have a problem with is the breeders who lie and are selling these "designer" dogs to the unsuspecting puppy buyer. Its the same thing with all the "English Cream" golden breeders-more lies to sell puppies.
 
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