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Thats exactly what I told a friends of mine. Imagine eating a McDonald's burger twice a day your entire life! My friend has a cat who is 9 yo and acts like she is 20yo. I finally convinced her to start raw but the kitty wont touch it! we keep trying though :)
Yes- cats are a whole different animal.... they are not so easy to convince to change to a new way of eating that is for sure:doh:
 

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sorry if it came off "judgy" not intentional :)

I follow these recipes: Raw Fed Dogs
I dont feed her any veggies but she does mow the lawn :)

U guys feed them other veggies? if so, how do you get them to eat it? Gracie wont touch anything other than meat

Once week I grind up fresh kale leaves and carrots in my food processor. I zip bag portions into quart size bags and freeze the extra so I have enough to bring down from the freezer when I need it. I give her a heaping table spoon mixed into her raw meat and everything else she gets each meal. She eats everything down to the bottom of the bowl. The trick is to grind it up fine- it digests better and they do not have much choice in eating it as they can not pick it out. I am lucky as Lola will eat ANYTHING.:eek:
 

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Molly isn't a huge vegetable fan but she does eat a small handful of cooked peas if they're mixed into her food. She enjoys some fruits, especially apple slices and bananas and blueberries but she eats them in small portions. I also add herbs like chopped parsley or mint to her dinner and she seems to enjoy that. Oh and she loves pears :)
 

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there are quality brands of raw on the market now. I buy 5 pound chubs of Bravo and or Northwest Naturals. They have added in some vegis and vitamins etc to make it complete-- along with the organ meat and bone ground in. It would be simular to eating say a chicken or small animal as they would in nature- eating the soft bones and the stomach contents and the organs of the animal they caught. All the enzymes are still there- NOT COOKED TO DEATH and processed like kibble. That is what makes raw the advantage over kibble. Everyone does what they feel they have time and money for and that is fine. But there are many advantages to a raw diet. That is hard to ignore.
 

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Personally my boy is a kibble dog. I feed him Pro Plan. Many a fine pooch has lived long and healthy even on the grocery store kibble. I would never discount raw feeding because the fact is in the wild for thousands + years k-9s survived. Food threads can get very personal to some so please keep that in mind;)
 

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hoooo boy, I'd better stop feeding my guys the junk kibble they've been getting. Poor Toby only lived to be 14 years old, and poor Tiny just turned 15 and is still going strong. So young for goldens to die, must be the crud I feed them.
 

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hoooo boy, I'd better stop feeding my guys the junk kibble they've been getting. Poor Toby only lived to be 14 years old, and poor Tiny just turned 15 and is still going strong. So young for goldens to die, must be the crud I feed them.

:confused: I do not get your post.... are you implying that kibble is good?? Why not just say it rather than post in such a crude way?
 

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:confused: I do not get your post.... are you implying that kibble is good?? Why not just say it rather than post in such a crude way?
I don't take it as crude but rather as a response from a person who has had very long lived, successful dogs using kibble. There are many good options for feeding our fur pals, and to denigrate what one feeds is bound to raise some hackles. I use a little kibble, some dehydrated and some raw at times. However, our Nutro fed springer mix lived to be almost 15 with no major health issues.
 

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It seemed an appropriate response to someone telling me that my dogs are fed McDonald's, and that's why pets are sick with disease and cancer...implying that I choose disease and easy food over health. It was a rather strong statement, completely unencumbered by fact. It got my hackles up pretty quickly, so I chose to site my dogs as examples of dogs who live/lived long, healthy lives on kibble.
There is an entire section of this forum dedicated to raw feeding. You might enjoy discussing your feeding ideas with some of the people there, rather than on the main forum where some of us feed McDonalds and you are bound to get some responses that you may not agree with nor care for.

"....Kibble for pets is like McDonalds for humans. Quick Easy and Fast. That is our society today...... and why both pets and people are sick with disease and cancer. To each his own I say. Do what you feel is best. Personally I chose health over disease and "easy" food....."

:confused: I do not get your post.... are you implying that kibble is good?? Why not just say it rather than post in such a crude way?
 

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Regarding destruction by cooking:

QuestionHow can pet foods be nutritionally complete when they are cooked at high temperatures during the extrusion and canning process? Aren't nutrients being destroyed by these temperatures?AnswerYou need not be concerned about the "high temperature" and subsequent "destruction" of nutrients in the making of dog food. People who clearly do not know how pet foods are made often repeat these statements. The temperature range throughout the whole process (canning and extrusion) ranges between 80 and 200 degree C for very short periods of time (seconds to not more than 90 minutes). We bake and cook our own food at higher temps and for longer than that.
Nutrients losses during manufacturing are also far over stated by those who do not study the data. The only nutrient type 'lost' or 'destroyed' through processing and storage are vitamins. The minerals cannot be destroyed at any thing less than 1000 degree C because they are inorganic nutrients, so they are not going anywhere. The protein, fat and carbohydrates fractions are cooked at relatively low temperatures (not high) and are actually more digestible after cooking than before.
In a 1995 study analysing 13 different vitamins before and after cooking and storage in both canned and dry dog and cat foods indicated that in dry foods the worse case was a 20-26% loss of the original vitamin A and D. In canned foods, the worse case was a 50-90% lost of thiamin, pyridoxine and biotin. The other AAFCO required vitamins experienced between 0 and 15% losses. Once these losses have been quantified, additional amounts of any vitamin can easily be added back or compensated for in the original mixture. Remember AAFCO nutrient concentrations are for the FINAL product, not the food mixture before cooking. So if the product meets AAFCO recommendations, then the final product contains adequate amounts of each vitamin. In fact, greater losses of vitamins occurs during shipping and storage of pet foods, which emphasizes the point that one should be more concerned about the expiration date on the product rather than the cooking process.

Rebecca Remillard, Ph.D., D.V.M., DACVN (one of only about 30 certified veterinary nutritionists in the US, and no, she does not work for a dog food company).



. All the enzymes are still there- NOT COOKED TO DEATH and processed like kibble. That is what makes raw the advantage over kibble. Everyone does what they feel they have time and money for and that is fine. But there are many advantages to a raw diet. That is hard to ignore.
 

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I feed kibble. It is high quality enough that it is NOT even close to McDonalds. I find that notion offensive and the undertone that I must not care about my dog if I feed kibble really unfair.

I am not lazy, I prefer kibble for many reasons. I do appreciate that it is quick but some raw companies also have raw pacakaged to be just as easy. I respect that others feed raw and it works for them. Please respect my decision about what is best for my pet.

Reserve your judgement to you and your dogs. We'll all worry about our own dogs and what is in their best interest as their owners.
 

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QuestionI have heard and read that the process of making pet foods destroys enzymes in the food. Is this true, and if so, how can this natural component of the dog's diet be "added back"??? AnswerCooking does destroy the enzymes found in food ingredients, but these are enzymes not needed by the dog or cat. Cooking destroys food enzymes that cause food rancidity, spoilage and those that destroy nutrients.
Yes ... some food enzymes destroy nutrients. One example - some fish ingredients contain thiaminase which destroys thiamin and when the thiaminase is not properly destroyed during cooking, cats eating such a food develop a thiamin deficiency which presents as a neurological disorder that can be fatal if not correctly treated quickly.
It is incorrect for people think that food enzymes are needed by the dog or cat to digest their food properly. The pancreas and mucosal lining contain enough enzymes to digest a meal ~70 times over! The limitation to complete digestion is the mixing, rate of passage (time), and the presence of other inhibitors like fiber that may limit enzyme access to the food. Most plant food enzymes are not necessary or even needed by the dog and cat. We want plant fiber to remain in the lumen of the intestinal tract to act as bulk and should not be completely digested away. Given most dry foods are 80-90% digestible; I'm not sure how much higher one would want to go? A 100% digestible food would produce no feces - now that can't be 'natural' ??
Rebecca Remillard, Ph.D., D.V.M., DACVN (one of only about 30 certified veterinary nutritionists in the US, and no, she does not work for a dog food company).
 

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Heres one you can jump all over. lol


Exposed! Vitamins And Minerals Are COOKED Out Of Your Dog's Food During The Manufacturing Process!


"The Animal Protection Institute" (one of the largest nonprofit animals rights organizations in the world...) recently released an in debt report after an investigation into the processing of commercial dog food:

Side note: The full report is more than 20 pages. Just shoot me an email if you want a copy.

Here, in a nutshell, is how it works ( I will tell you why this matters in just a second)...

Step 1: During manufacture, the raw materials for pet food are combined. Steam, heat, and pressure are applied to the mixture until it reaches 305 degrees Fahrenheit.

Step 2: It is then placed into an extruder (originally designed for plastics) that puffs the food into kibble shapes.

Step 3: Once shaped, the food is cooked more at high temperatures and pressure, and then dried for half an hour to 45 minutes. Finally, it’s sprayed with the “fat” to make it taste good and bagged.

Step 4: In the case of canned foods, after production, they are sealed in cans which are then sterilized by use of more heat. The cans are heated to 250 degrees Fahrenheit for 80 minutes.

By the time the commercial dog food gets to the store, it’s been subjected to long periods of very high heat—far more heat than is needed to destroy vital nutrients.

If you'd like more evidence just look at this published paper from encyclopedia.com


SHOCKING! Here's What's Happening To All Your Dog's Vitamins And Minerals!


An article in Living Nutrition Magazine entitled “Cooking, Malnutrition, and Cancer” by Arthur Baker, MA, outlines what happens when food is heated above a mere 117 degrees Fahrenheit for 3 minutes or more.

#1 Proteins coagulate—they become indigestible so your body cannot use them; plus, these coagulated molecules putrefy as bacteria in the body feed on them.

#2 The protein molecular structure is denatured, which results in a deficiency of essential amino acids.

#3 Carbohydrates caramelize generating carcinogens.

#4 Thirty to 50 percent of vitamins and minerals are destroyed.

#5 100 percent of enzymes are damaged.

#6 Oxygen is lost.

#7 Free radicals are produced.

#8 Cooked food pathogens weaken the immune system.

#9 Inorganic mineral elements enter the blood and settle into arteries and veins.

#10 Inorganic matter settles into joints and internal organs, aging the body. Higher temperatures and longer exposure to heat = progressively more damage.


Need more evidence?

Then perhaps this research paper from "Harvard Medical School" will help!

This Harvard document clearly describes how foods that are kept hot for more than two hours lose more than 10 percent of any folic acid, vitamin C, and vitamin B6;

When food is cooled and reheated it loses more than 30 percent of vitamin C and folic acid.

Minerals are lost when food is cooked in water and the water removed.

Note: These figures apply to basic food preparation in the kitchen for human consumption. Imagine how much more is lost through the pet food manufacturing process.​
 

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one of my personal favorites:


QuestionMy lab has been on the Pat Mckay.com program makes a big deal about the fact that all enzymes are killed in processed food and that the dog needs enzymes. How do your address that point?AnswerSomeone is attempting to rewrite a basic physiology! This is so wrong on many points.
1) The normal dog pancreas has been measured to produce something on the order of 70X the amount of protein and fat enzymes needed to digest a meal. The enzymes used to digest carbohydrates are actually sitting in the small intestinal mucosa, which in total has a surface area about the size of a football field. Evidence that most commercial dog foods without enzyme addition have an overall digestibility of 85-90% attests to their endogenous enzyme production. I think not producing feces is a bad idea, and that this level of digestibility is about right.
2) There is only one medical situation whereby additional enzymes are need and the condition is called Pancreatic Enzymes Insufficiency (PEI). Pancreatic function in this regard can be easily evaluated by a simple, single fasted blood test called a TLI. If your dog is documented to have PEI, the current recommendation is to add either fresh frozen porcine/bovine pancreas OR a commercially produced dehydrated powdered preparation of the same. These PEI dogs have very clear unmistakable clinical signs that do not appear until nearly 90+% of pancreas as been destroyed to give you again some idea of the reserve enzymatic capacity of the canine pancreas.
3) If enzymes to digest food were already in the food, then the food would self digest or undergo autolysis and be a pool of mush before being fed. In fact, food degradation [say a piece of meat left on the counter for 2-5 days] occurs because digestion by microbial contaminates on the surface have begun to "digest" the food. The unexposed center of the meat will be intact. Simply adding "enzymes" to a normal dog's foods does not increase the overall digestibility sufficiently to warrant lifting dollars from your wallet into someone else's.
4) Some ads for these supplements do correctly point out that the pet does not have enzymes to digest plant material - fiber. No mammal has enzymes to digest the structural components of plants, i.e., cellulase, etc. Only microbes in the rumen of cows, within the stomach of termites or in the large bowel of you and your dog can digest plant fiber. Even if you provide cellulases and they actually work in the small intestine of the dog (highly unlikely b/c they were not designed to work in that environment) the smaller subsequent fragments produced by the digestion are unlikely to be absorbed across the gut wall because again, cellulose subunits were not designed to be digested, hence not recognized by carriers within the small bowel of mammals. For example; cellulose is made of glucose units but using a beta 1-4 linkage which is different from the glucose in starch or glycogen that uses an alpha 1-4 linkage. That one small differences beta vs. alpha renders the glucose within cellulose unavailable to mammals because it changes the whole configuration of the subsequent disaccharide unit. Buying enzyme supplements for your normal healthy pet is NOT needed. Sellers of such products are playing on general ignorance and obfuscation. Physiology is being "rewritten" here by those who have a product to sell. And because things have gotten "out of hand" in the pet supplement market, the FDA is considering pressing our current laws into effect that would require such claims to be validated. If and when they do, it will be most interesting to see which supplement companies and/or products survive. I assure you most will simply disappear.

Rebecca Remillard, Ph.D., D.V.M., DACVN (one of only about 30 certified veterinary nutritionists in the US, and no, she does not work for a dog food company).

 

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nah, too busy laughing at the typo....an "in debt report" !



recently released an in debt report after an investigation into the processing of commercial dog food:
 

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So here's my bottom line answer to the OP's question.
Why kibble?
Because it works for me and my dogs.
Each of us has to choose that which we feel most comfortable feeding, based on our lifestyles, our scientific backgrounds, our knowledge, our finances, and most of all how our pets do on any given diet.
But unfortunately, some proponents of some diets come across as having a "holier than thou" attitude because of what they feed, and those implications are unnecessary, uncalled for, and downright rude. I do not take issue with any diet that someone feeds their pets. I only take issue if someone belittles the diet I feed my pets.
 

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I think the bottom line is their poo dosen,t stink so bad on Raw. And less of it.
And I repeat-my dogs have nice small poops, which really don't smell all that bad, and which dry out very quickly. Unless I overfeed them, or give them some of my food which may not agree with them ;)
 

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I think the bottom line is their poo dosen,t stink so bad on Raw. And less of it.
I don't know if I believe that? Especially if you are feeding them mostly meat with a raw diet. :confused:

Scooping up after our cat and our dog - two completely different things based on what they eat.

When I scoop up after our dogs - the collie's the easiest because he's on a completely bland diet. But even Jacks' isn't that bad. And when I walk or hike, I am scooping up after him.
 
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