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Which stud dog would you choose?

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  • None, why is anyone ever crazy enough to be a breeder? This is too hard!

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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I put this in another response where it is more rhetorical but I am curious about how you would choose. I also feel like there is a misunderstanding at least with me that I or even this forum has an issue with pale dogs. I don’t think that is the case. I think the issue is bad breeding so, I pose this poll. I will have a secondary question below to kick off the discussion.

Thought experiment - You be the breeder
You have to choose which parent dogs to breed together to make your puppy.

The main breeding Axiom: There are no perfect dogs.

If something is unmentioned, please assume it is the positive option and shared by all dogs.
Example: I did not specifically mention Ichthyosis so assume all have been tested and all are negative (they don’t carry any bad copies of the gene).

Potential momma
Your female dog was imported from Eastern Europe sight unseen. She is so pale that everyday Joe’s you run into call her white. She is over two and has passed all her health certifications. You have been working with her on her CGC with the dream of doing therapy work. She has had some struggles with the walking through a crowd, reacting to distractions when it is presented as dropping things and the supervised separation has show quite a bit of anxiousness. You feel if her personality where a bit bolder these things would not be an issue. You don’t know much about structure but you do see that her front two paws would point to 10 and 2 on the clock and while 10/2 might be okay for driving hands it doesn’t look comfortable on your girl’s feet.

Potential Dads (all are fictitious but similar to what is found in real life)

1. Medium Gold in color from an American based pedigree, overall structure is great. He doesn’t have any titles himself but he does have all the appropriate health certifications. His owner says he has a great temperament but a friend has shared that this dog has a streak of protection she did not like. You go to visit and see no temperament issues displayed. He is close and affordable to use.

2. This is very pale, almost white dog that was imported from Eastern Europe. His structure leaves a lot to be desired and looks like he may have health issues as he ages from the lacks in his structure (fiddle front, cow hockey, sway back, etc.) This dog has no titles and is missing health certifications or they where not done correctly (too young or not by the appropriate specialist). He never leaves his property so there is no one to ask about his temperament but his owner and they say it is great. You go to visit and this dog seems timid and doesn’t make eye contact. The owner just says, “look how calm he is, he always makes very calm puppies”. He is close but more expensive than dog number one.

3. A dog who is light Golden and has a blended pedigree. He is impressive in his titles as he has an AKC Championship along with several obedience titles. He has all of his health certifications as do the generations behind him. He has what looks to be lovely structure although he might be a bit smaller in height that you were hoping. The owner describes this dog as one that will never be a couch potato but has a good off switch. You visit and the dog is lovely but you do see that this dog is more active in general than the other two. He is further away and because he will be going out to shows you may have to do an AI breeding. If he is at home, the cost would be comparable to dog 2 but if he is out showing the need for an AI will increase your costs.

4. A very pale dog that currently lives in a bordering country he was imported from the UK. He is impressive in his titles as he is a Champion in his country as well as having a hunting title and a therapy designation. He has all of his health certifications as do the generations behind him. He has what looks to be lovely structure although you would have liked a bit more substantial legs. His owner describes him as her heart dog, a lovely boy who is game for anything she wants to try. There will not be the opportunity to meet him in person but his owner is happy to send photos, videos or anything else you need. The stud owner will require that you sell all puppies on spay neuter contracts and that only a puppy you keep in your own name solely will be allowed to have full registration. His cost is comparable to dog 2 even after needing to do an AI.

5. A very pale dog, even a little lighter than your girl and is of European lineage. His structure could be better and he has the same issue with his front feet that your girls does, perhaps even a bit worse. This dog has an IABCA International title but when you ask about how he did, the owner says, “He showed well but was always placed behind two American looking dogs. I think the judge doesn’t like English Creams. That why I don’t show AKC.” This dog does have a therapy designation. He has almost full certifications except his heart was not tested by a Cardiologist. You ask if the owner would be willing to retest with a Cardiologist and you are even willing to pay for it but they decline, saying none of his 100+ puppies have ever had any issues. His owner says his temperament is great. You go to visit and this dog seems fine but you realize he is being kept separate from all the other dogs. You ask to see him interact with another dog but they only give excuses. You do see him catch sight of another dog, he gives that dog a hard stare and his heckles raise but he is sweet with you. He is close and the most expensive but they will waive the fee for two puppies out of the litter.

Which stud dog would you choose?
 

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Discussion question answer: English creme breeder would pick dog 2, 4, or 5 and I’m leaning towards 5 because being able to advertise puppies with champion titles and “health tested” at the low low breeding fee of two puppies.

edit: I picked dog 3, but I wouldn’t be breeding that bitch anyway
 

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Kate
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My answer is #3 for who I would prefer.

As far as who I see often when clicking on breeder websites people inquire about here - is #2.
 

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What a cool thought exercise!
You spent a lot of time working that out- it's very nicely done.

My answer? I wouldn't breed that bitch so wouldn't have to make a choice- but for the ECGR breeders would -with zero question in my mind as to this- 2 or 5.
If I HAD TO breed her (dk why this would be, because I have no issue tossing a bitch from a program period) then I would choose #3. Possibly #4.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I realize for a lot of our actual breeders on the site the answer is not to breed because of the girl. I would say, while in real life that is an option, it is purposely not one of the poll options. I hope we get a few more responses from the buyers or non-breeder folks on the forum. I really am curious to know what will be the poll winner.

I also think it might be interesting to hear if any of the non-breeder folks had an idea that decisions for breeders are very much like this.
 

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The responsible choice is to not breed any of those dogs IMO.
 

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I probably wouldn’t breed the bitch, but if I were, it would be Dog #3. Temperament is extremely important to me and to my families. I spend an exhausting amount of time with my (infrequent) litters to get them proper, controlled exposure to different environments and situations.
 

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Do you mean to not to breed the girl? Or not to not allow any of the six to reproduce ever?
“Not allow” is a little strong. I would have no interest in breeding any of those dogs and would not take a puppy.
 
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I’d choose 3 personally, but were thinking from a ECGR breeder perspective, they’d choose 2 or 5
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
What to your mind is the difference to it not being responsible and not being allowed. I thought I had read the intent correctly And now I am confused.

For me there are a ton of breedings I would never want a puppy from but I would not say they were not responsible choices. There are a ton of responsible breeders but that doesn’t mean I want their dogs. For instance, I don’t want most field bred dogs. Doesn’t mean their breeders where not responsible, it doesn’t even mean I don’t like the dog. I just don’t want it. I imagine from what I have gleaned of you from the very limited interaction we have had online, that might horrify you a bit. 😜
 

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I wouldn’t breed from that bitch! I’ve made similar decisions in the past. For decades, I aspired to be a breeder but only once have I had a bitch I considered good enough in every way to breed, and I couldn’t find a male dog whose temperament I truly liked.

If I had a bitch who was good enough to breed, I’d consider dogs 3 and 4. I’d be thinking beyond the next generation and, if dog 4 is as good as he sounds, one good quality main register puppy would be preferable to multiple lesser quality main register puppies. (I’d be upfront with the breeder about my hopes, of course.) With dog 3, I’d be considering potential puppy purchasers... could I find enough good homes for very active puppies?

In both cases, I’d be seeking information about progeny and other related dogs, including opportunities to meet them and see them compete, before I made a decision.
 

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4 b.c of temperament reasons. Dog sounds like the right match for the bitch temperament wise, and checks all the boxes for structure, health clearances and legit pedigree
 
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Kate
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I wouldn’t breed from that bitch! I’ve made similar decisions in the past. For decades, I aspired to be a breeder but only once have I had a bitch I considered good enough in every way to breed, and I couldn’t find a male dog whose temperament I truly liked.
Not a breeder, but my impression has always been that if you are a new person on the block starting out, you do not often get the "good enough in every way" type girlie to start your program with. Those are the dogs that established breeders keep for themselves. So what you get is a 2nd or 3rd pick... which might not even be a pick in somebody else's breeding program.

A rational person would look for a dog that not only has everything they wanted to begin with, but also has the titles to help make up for where their dog lacks. Might still be a couple generations from having the big dream dog they wanted to begin with, but they could take a step in the right direction.

I'm just thinking - again, not a breeder.

She has had some struggles with the walking through a crowd, reacting to distractions when it is presented as dropping things and the supervised separation has show quite a bit of anxiousness. You feel if her personality where a bit bolder these things would not be an issue.
Can I just say that I do not believe the CGC test means much.

I know of a dog (big grand champion, not a golden) who passed the CGC test with flying colors. But he was dog aggressive and not much for training or working purposes.

CGC test titles mean nothing at all. They don't say much about the trainability of a dog. They don't say much about the temperament of a dog.

Neither do CH or even obedience titles. But people talk more - and you can probably learn a little through the grapevine if there were any known situations with a dog. It's up to you to decide how legit the gossip is, but... probably easier to get that kind of feedback about a dog who is being shown here in the US... vs a foreign dog.

Lots of people describe their dogs as heart dogs and will tell you that the dogs are the bees knees. The more they love their dogs, the less they will make of "small" issues with those dogs.

My opinion. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Yes, but the point wasn’t so much the CGC but that the dog is likely from a temperament standpoint more timid than ideal. Not that the CGC was a reason to breed.

From setting up the scenario standpoint it seemed better to make the breeder (supposedly you) relatable. That they are doing training, that they do have a goal and by training have uncovered an issue they want to fix when breeding. That they are trying, at least somewhat aware and wanting to better.
 

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Yes, but the point wasn’t so much the CGC but that the dog is likely from a temperament standpoint more timid than ideal. Not that the CGC was a reason to breed.
Sorry - I believe I lost track of what I meant to say there. :)

I meant to say that the CGC test does not do much as far as identifying which dogs would be ideal for therapy work. And then I got carried away alluding to how some breeders have dogs who get that CGC title very easily on their puppy dogs (around 6-7 months old), but have greater issues at maturity (9+ months).

As far as the girlie you describe who is timid or has shortcomings which make her less ideal for what the owner is interested in doing. What I meant to say is selecting a dog that has the confidence/soundness the owner is looking for, be better going with a dog where it's easier to get feedback on - than a foreign dog?
 

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I've whelped 31 puppies as a volunteer breeder caretaker. (I've also been a whelper helper at 4 or 5 other whelps.) That means the service dog organization is picking the sire and sending the puppies to volunteer puppy raisers. They also provide me with 24 hour vet support during the 8 weeks. There are also other volunteers close by who can puppy sit if I need to be away for a few hours for something family related. I have a manual to follow so that I know when to do what. The service dog organization also provides me with all needed medications for the dam and the puppies (deworming, etc.). The service dog organization also gives me the puppy food and the high calorie pregnancy/nursing food for the dam. There is no way in heck that I'd be a private breeder and do all this on my own, so I went with - NONE.
 

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Do most “English Cream” breeders even get full clearances on their dogs? I was under the impression that most did not.

Assuming the EC breeder isn’t actually skilled enough to spot the red flags with regard to very poor structure, incomplete clearances, unknown titles, and off temperament, my guess is they pick 2 or 5. 5 if they actually got clearances on their girl, 2 or 5 if they didn’t. They’ll jack up the puppy price to make up for the more expensive stud fee over dog 1.

For the poll I picked 3.
 
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