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Why are people up in arms over the existence of English Creme Golden Retrievers?

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I may have asked this in an old thread...Forgive me, but I'm still not understanding...From a practical point of view, what's wrong with English Creme Golden Retrievers? What makes them different from other golden retrievers? Are there any breeders in this forum that support the existence of an English Creme golden?

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· Esquire Golden Retrievers
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Follow Laura’s advice, but here’s a start:

Washington
  • Evergreen Golden Retriever Club – Seattle WA
  • Inland Empire GRC – Spokane WA
  • SweetGold
    • Kym & Rich Anton — Enumclaw, WA
  • TriStar
    • Sharmin Dominke — Redmond, WA
  • Goldtales
    • Susan Babich — Marysville, WA
  • Limelite Goldens
    • Claudia Shaw — Kirkland, WA
  • Chuckanut
    • Ken Matthews — Bellingham, WA

I second SweetGold and Chuckanut. Both wonderful breeders and wonderful human beings.
 

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UGH.... this subject has gotten old.
As a caretaker down through the years of 5 "American Goldens" and 3 "European Goldens", I can tell you they are both wonderful. Great personalties, each one different. Always a "sweetness" in their disposition, very loyal, and just darn right fun to be around. Have I seen difference between the two?
You bet. But you know what? I recognize that people on this forum will never agree with me, and that is just fine. We have each had different experiences so our opinions will vary. And when it comes down to it, we all love these dogs, no matter where they come from or their color.

I am happy to leave it at that.
 

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I may have asked this in an old thread...Forgive me, but I'm still not understanding...From a practical point of view, what's wrong with English Creme Golden Retrievers? What makes them different from other golden retrievers? Are there any breeders in this forum that support the existence of an English Creme golden?

Thanks for your feedback!
IMHO it is nothing more than to create the illusion of added value because of a particular trait in the color of the dog's coat. People have preferences and this caters to that preference and creates the perception of increased value. It's like Goldens have a certain value - high value IMHO, but English Cream are an even more elite and desirable dog, and if that's what someone wants, more power to them. As long as the breed overall isn't degraded, I have no objection. If that's a niche in the market that brings a better price, and makes the puppies more desirable then I have no problem with it. Not my preference since I strongly prefer the more Golden color of the coat. IMHO, Goldies are kind of the ultimate dog to have anyway. Everybody loves a Golden. They spread sunshine wherever they are.
 

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As long as the breed overall isn't degraded, I have no objection. If that's a niche in the market that brings a better price, and makes the puppies more desirable then I have no problem with it.
It is an exploitative niche market that on the whole does degrade the health and structure of the breed.
 

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IMHO it is nothing more than to create the illusion of added value because of a particular trait in the color of the dog's coat. People have preferences and this caters to that preference and creates the perception of increased value. It's like Goldens have a certain value - high value IMHO, but English Cream are an even more elite and desirable dog, and if that's what someone wants, more power to them. As long as the breed overall isn't degraded, I have no objection. If that's a niche in the market that brings a better price, and makes the puppies more desirable then I have no problem with it. Not my preference since I strongly prefer the more Golden color of the coat. IMHO, Goldies are kind of the ultimate dog to have anyway. Everybody loves a Golden. They spread sunshine wherever they are.
Unfortunately it's not just a question of coat colour. The English Cream fad is in fact degrading the breed because almost none of the breeders advertising these dogs are doing any form of health testing on their breeding stock. As a result, they are perpetuating some very undesirable hereditary and genetic problems in the breed: hip and elbow dysplasia, blindness, heart problems, skin problems, etc., and lots of others. They are breeding for colour, not for temperament or trainability or any of the traits for which golden retrievers are known. Many of the dogs used by English Cream breeders are imported from Eastern Europe and their backgrounds are difficult if not impossible to verify. There is no question that they are dragging the breed down.

I'm originally from England, and believe me, there is nothing "English" about these dogs. Golden retrievers in England come in a wide variety of shades of gold; they are not all cream-coloured. And the name "English cream" is inherently misleading because the dogs don't come from England and aren't representative of the type of golden retriever you will find over there.

Bottom line, English Cream dogs aren't "elite" or "more desirable". They are produced by people who don't care about improving the breed; they don't show their dogs or hunt with them or compete in sports or do anything at all except create puppies and sell them. And yet, they charge more than the ethical breeders who do the health tests and compete with their dogs to prove that they meet the breed standard.
 

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"English Cream" Goldens aren't rare because it seems as though you can buy one on every other street corner. If they're so prevalent they sure aren't rare. They aren't elite because they generally aren't health tested or certified according to best practices in the US and their breeders do nothing to prove the dogs. All this leads to producing dogs with a myriad of health concerns and inferior structure.....that's not elite. Plus, they don't even bark with a British accent.......just a plain old American one......
 

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"English Cream" Goldens aren't rare because it seems as though you can buy one on every other street corner.
This is what I find so ironic. Goldens with light coats are so common now that they can no longer be marketed as “rare” (at least to any sensible person). There will still be a market for those who just find the lighter coat or heavier body type appealing, or who believe the hype about health or longevity, but I suspect we are already beginning to see a swing back in the other direction and everyone (well, the greeders at least) will be trying to breed the dark red dogs again…
 
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The term was made up by BYB breeders as a marketing ploy, and it’s nonsensical. Not all very light/cream goldens are from English lines and not all English goldens are cream colored. Whoever came up with the term and those who popularized it seem to want to give an air of specialness to certain goldens based on color (making puppy buyers vulnerable to getting tricked into paying huge amounts for litters based on color only) and breeding just for color isn’t a good idea.

For those who aren’t very familiar with goldens in general it also gives them skewed ideas, like that a cream colored golden is a different breed or a mutation, instead of the reality that all goldens are on a spectrum when it comes to color. Similarly, people misrepresent studies about cancer rates of golden in Europe leading to the misconception that dogs from European lines have lower rates of cancer, or that “English cream” Goldens will live longer.
I don't know what the real truth of this is, but I do have to say... I was researching golden breeders in my area and the prices were up around 4000. There was a breeder who bred "english cream" goldens and his price was 3000. His adult dogs were imported from Ukraine and Poland. I don't know if that makes a difference. But I can say that his dogs were more muscular than most goldens I have seen. They were shorter and stockier, and snouts were shorter looking. Their fur was also more coarse than any golden I have seen. So, I don't know if any of that makes a difference.
 

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I don't know what the real truth of this is, but I do have to say... I was researching golden breeders in my area and the prices were up around 4000. There was a breeder who bred "english cream" goldens and his price was 3000. His adult dogs were imported from Ukraine and Poland. I don't know if that makes a difference. But I can say that his dogs were more muscular than most goldens I have seen. They were shorter and stockier, and snouts were shorter looking. Their fur was also more coarse than any golden I have seen. So, I don't know if any of that makes a difference.
“His adult dogs were imported from Ukraine and Poland” like I said, the term is nonsensical, he’s not importing dogs from England. I doubt his dogs were more muscular than dogs who train and compete in field events. Sounds more like they just had shorter legs and thicker bodies than the goldens you’re used to seeing.
 

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“His adult dogs were imported from Ukraine and Poland” like I said, the term is nonsensical, he’s not importing dogs from England. I doubt his dogs were more muscular than dogs who train and compete in field events. Sounds more like they just had shorter legs and thicker bodies than the goldens you’re used to seeing.
In other words, they didn't look like Goldens......for $1000 less, what a bargain!!.....unless you want a healthy Golden with correct temperament, structure and coat that actually looks like a Golden.......
 

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I don't know what the real truth of this is, but I do have to say... I was researching golden breeders in my area and the prices were up around 4000. There was a breeder who bred "english cream" goldens and his price was 3000. His adult dogs were imported from Ukraine and Poland. I don't know if that makes a difference. But I can say that his dogs were more muscular than most goldens I have seen. They were shorter and stockier, and snouts were shorter looking. Their fur was also more coarse than any golden I have seen. So, I don't know if any of that makes a difference.
Yes there are a lot of high volume commercial kennels in Eastern Europe that will export to anyone with money. They often send the lesser quality dogs here and keep the best prospects in their own kennel or place them with peer breeders in Europe. So, imports especially from those known HVB kennels are red flags, not the boon as “English Cream” breeders tend tout.

The physical features you list are usually the only features puppy shoppers can see. Unfortunately they also seem to be the only thing most “English Cream” breeders can see too. Most of the marketed “English Cream” dogs and puppies have serious structural issues. These issues are likely to cause breakdown earlier in life and contribute to geriatric behavior/pain in younger dogs.

Do poorly bred dogs of European pedigrees seem more substantial than poorly bred dogs of American pedigrees? Yes, they often do because reputable conformation focused breeders in the US with the more substantial dogs have been very protective of their lines. A well bred conformation dog is often as or more substantial than European bred dogs.
 

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You Lily is lovely, Would be a great buddy for my Wyatt.
And again, to say one color is better than the other is just wrong. They are ALL great dogs, and there are healthy and not so healthy ones in both types regardless of color or place or origin. And one type does not take away from the other.
Recently I have seen too many standard American Goldens that are WAY too fat, and heavy for their frames. But that is not the fault of the breed, but over feeding and not enough exercise.
 

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The term was made up by BYB breeders as a marketing ploy, and it’s nonsensical. Not all very light/cream goldens are from English lines and not all English goldens are cream colored. Whoever came up with the term and those who popularized it seem to want to give an air of specialness to certain goldens based on color (making puppy buyers vulnerable to getting tricked into paying huge amounts for litters based on color only) and breeding just for color isn’t a good idea.

For those who aren’t very familiar with goldens in general it also gives them skewed ideas, like that a cream colored golden is a different breed or a mutation, instead of the reality that all goldens are on a spectrum when it comes to color. Similarly, people misrepresent studies about cancer rates of golden in Europe leading to the misconception that dogs from European lines have lower rates of cancer, or that “English cream” Goldens will live longer.
Do you prefer, white retriever to describe them? I can't find any evidence to suggest that the description was made up by back yard breeders as a marketing ploy. Its just a description, and at this point everyone understands the kind of dog its describing. I've heard other people calling the darker ones, Red. Does that description of coat color offend you?
 

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Yes, I'm running into more and more people who are saying they own a "Cream Retriever" - as if it's a totally different breed than a Golden Retriever. Even our local group that specializes in helping people capture lost dogs will often describe a pale Golden as a "cream retriever." I cringe every time, especially since, once they already own one, my window for educating them is already closed... sigh

One of my Goldens is pretty pale and I'm often asked if she's a Cream Retriever, and at least then I can say, "Well, no. That's not really a thing. She does have some European dogs in her background but she just happens to have a lighter coat...."
How would you like them to describe the coat color of their retriever in simple terms?
 

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Do you prefer, white retriever to describe them? I can't find any evidence to suggest that the description was made up by back yard breeders as a marketing ploy. Its just a description, and at this point everyone understands the kind of dog its describing. I've heard other people calling the darker ones, Red. Does that description of coat color offend you?
Some people incorrectly say that “English Creams” are a different breed altogether. They are not. It’s one thing to use the words “cream” or “red” to describe a dog’s coat color and quite another to use color as a marketing ploy. From cream to red and all shades in between, they are just Golden Retrievers.
 
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