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Discussion Starter #1
I have a friend who hates when I talk about my opinion on hip screenings. I believe any large breed should have hips screened before breeding. He is telling me his breed the Shepalute which is also called the American Alsatian has no known hip issues within the breed. Yet, this dog had Malamutes, Shepherds, Mastiffs and a couple other breeds that went into creating this breed. All of which are prone to hip issues.

So, is my theory and belief correct that they should all be screened before breeding? He says the breeder knows if the dog has issues just by watching it move and feeling the joints. I think this is...a load of bull. Had I not of had my Rottie hips done I never would of knew he had issues. He is telling me that when dogs in the breed start coming up with hip issues is when they will start screening for them

So every time this comes up, it ends up in us getting peeved at each other
 

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Discussion Starter #3
No hes isnt breeding. He got the dog from a breeder. But this breeder doesnt screen hips because apparently its not a problem in the breed. when I believe the hips should be done anyway, this breeder just waits for a problem to arise when realistically it would take every single puppy buyer to screen the dogs hips and report back.

Heres the link to the breed standard thingy

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/a/americanalsatian.htm
 

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Kate
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It's still a mutt, and from what I read googling the breed - they are still outcrossing other breeds to comprise this mixed breed. And of course they are using the "American Alsation" breed tag to hide the fact that this is a mixed breed (Shepalute) just like the labradoodles and shepadoodles and whatnot.

To answer your question - I think some breed clubs in the AKC (I know little about the CKC) require more clearances than other. Whether it should be like that or not...
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Yeah but even out pure breds today were created by mixing breeds. I dunno I dont want to start an argument on that
 

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Kate
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My purebred golden retriever has a pedigree that shows that you have to go back 100+ years to find other breeds. Going far enough back on K9data (1800's), I can find labrador retrievers and flat coats.

The fact is that with my purebred golden, we are not talking about some breed that been around for such a short time (20 years) and is comprised of a 5 other breeds and on websites touting the breed there are breeders that admit that there will be more cross breedings with other breeds to adjust the appearance and temperament of these mixed dogs.
 

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Grumpy Old Man
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Yeah but even out pure breds today were created by mixing breeds. I dunno I dont want to start an argument on that
Creating a "Breed" is much much more than just putting two dogs together. In order to consider something a "breed", it needs to reproduce itself true to type. Breeding a mix to a mix will not consistently produce offspring of like type.


As far as the hips go, you get out of a pairing what you put into one. If the parents and ancestors come from lines with suspect hip conformation, it is likely that the offspring will share the same faults.
 

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As far as the hips go, you get out of a pairing what you put into one. If the parents and ancestors come from lines with suspect hip conformation, it is likely that the offspring will share the same faults.
I am not sure, but I think you can also create problems if you pair dogs with very different conformations or sizes, even if both dogs come from clear lines.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
So how would one consider a dog pure bred? Like how many generations? Apparently if you breed these dogs to each other they produce all the same colours etc.
 

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So how would one consider a dog pure bred? Like how many generations? Apparently if you breed these dogs to each other they produce all the same colours etc.
That's a really good question, how long does it take for a new breed to consistently "reproduce itself true to type"?
 

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Kate
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That's a really good question, how long does it take for a new breed to consistently "reproduce itself true to type"?
I'll leave this to people here who are involved with breeding to answer specifically, but I glanced on the AKC website re/Foundation Stock. This is a program for those breeds that are in development and vying for recognition in the AKC.

And I see "distinct breed" over "many decades". To me that means that you should have a certain type that you attain while breeding these dogs without having to go back and reintroduce other breeds or new combinations.

The American Kennel Club considers requests to enter FSS® from breed clubs or individual fanciers of a breed. Those wishing to pursue recording with FSS® must:
  • Provide a written breed history documenting the distinct breed over a period of many decades. This should include details on any foreign and/or domestic organizations that register the breed. The source of the historical information must also be provided.
  • Provide an official written breed standard, indicating the origin of that standard. If the standard differs from the official breed standard in the breed country of origin please specify those differences.
  • Provide photographs of the breed, including puppies and adults, as well as both dogs and bitches. If there are different accepted types in the breed, photographs of each type should be included and labeled as such.
This is random, but one FSS breed that I met at a recent obedience trial and FELL IN LOVE with was a Eurasier. :eek:
 

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I think opinions on hip screenings are touchy when people are looking for excuses not to do them, despite their proven efficacy in reducing rates of HD. These bad breeders learn to throw dirt on the idea because they constantly have to field unpleasant questions about why they ignore such a useful tool for protecting dogs' health.

Sometimes you'll hear good breeders discuss the flaws in the OFA system or the relative merits of PennHIP, but none of them are touchy about it, and none of them say that the occasional OFA error means we should throw out the system. Every good Golden breeder I know of, without exception, does OFA hips or PennHIP or both on every breeding dog.
 

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Where The Bitches Rule
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I would also question what is the "purpose" of breeding this mixed breed? (In my heart I know it is about the money, but I am sure these "breeders" have a stated "Breed Purpose")
 

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Tracer, Rumor & Cady
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I would also ask myself why have this discussion over and over again with a friend - he knows your position you know his..

He has the dog in his home...presumably he loves and cares for the dog and he is not breeding. Im guessing he sees the discussion as a personal insult on his intelligence or an insult to his dog. I guess why beat a dead horse?

If this is truly a friendship that you enjoy...sometimes you have to agree to disagree...and want peace rather then to be right.

Now if he had not yet made the decision to buy the dog or he was breeding...I could and probably would see the case for making a strong case and trying to make a point..
 

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Discussion Starter #15
According to a few articles I read online this "breed" actually qualifies for AKC recognition. But the creater of the breed wants it to remain out of the AKC in fear they will ruin the breed. Apparently, all the AKC cares about is the looks of the dog because they have screwed up so many breeds like the cocker spaniel, bull terrier, english bull dogge and the german shepherd.

I thought it was people who destroyed them not the AKC. The creater said the AKC will take her standards of the breed and create their own standards on what the breed should look like etc. She doesnt want that.

Are you recognized by AKC?
 

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Where The Bitches Rule
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Well looking at the website they are experts is preaching the absurd. My opinion is they are staunch supporters of the adage "A good defense is a good offense" and are only trying to justify their own existence. :(
And I LOVE the statement "The world's first large breed of dog bred solely for companionship" :doh:
 
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Discussion Starter #17
lol well, I cant say I dont agree with you there. You should check out her actual website I think you would get a laugh
 

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I think any breeder who says they have never had a hip or elbow or other issues within their breedings are full of doggie poo. I doubt every single dog they have produced has been xrayed since it sounds like they are basically being bred for companion.

Beautiful dogs but they don't qualify as a purebred dog in my book. I don't think I'd want to deal with all that hair
 
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