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Kate
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View attachment 892139 Not any very good ones. This is a new computer and I haven't transferred very many files over yet. I know she looks light in this photo but she's not in any way close to the dreaded "cream" color.
Thanks for sharing - have always been curious because you've mentioned both dogs but never shared images. :) Both are nice looking dogs.
 

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Thanks for sharing - have always been curious because you've mentioned both dogs but never shared images. :) Both are nice looking dogs.
I don't post many photos, my internet is not what you'd call "high speed" and it can be laggy and annoying to try uploading photos. I did put both of them into the monthly photo contests a couple of times though. I think they're both pretty fantastic. But they are very different from each other!
 

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the party's crashing us
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I was under the impression he was owner handled the whole way - only saw him being handled by one of his owners.
You are correct...Ryzin is owned by both Marilyn and her grandaughter, Alyssa, and Alyssa certainly did show Ryzin. I don't know if she put all of his points on him. A number of friends handled him in the ring. He is Marilyn's dog, resides with her and she did all of the performance training on him.

Other thread was mostly tearing down of the breed as it is today. Which is sad.
Ehhh, I don't think so. It's more of people who don't do field work talking about field work, and people who don't show, talking about show dogs, and both making gross generalizations about the opposing party. I honestly wish people would "STAY IN THEIR OWN LANE" or get involved if they want to share an educated opinion.
 

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Kate
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Ehhh, I don't think so. It's more of people who don't do field work talking about field work, and people who don't show, talking about show dogs, and both making gross generalizations about the opposing party. I honestly wish people would "STAY IN THEIR OWN LANE" or get involved if they want to share an educated opinion.
I honestly don't think there was very much talking about field work. Or if there was, it was coming from people who live completely in the field world. :)

I wish people over there would come out of their closets a day or two - if only to see that there are nice dogs in the show ring. Even that article was overly grim considering our breed is one of the few that covers all the sports and does care about breeding for longevity and health.

Sitting by and listening to somebody have a fit about breeding dogs below 10% COI being something that would "destroy" her breed (not goldens) was a good reminder of where most golden breeders tend to situate themselves.
 

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Finn
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I’m not feeling the best myself, so forgive me if I’m remembering incorrectly, but I believe that the article was taking general sporting dogs, and not about just Goldens.
 
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Kate
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I’m not feeling the best myself, so forgive me if I’m remembering incorrectly, but I believe that the article was taking general sporting dogs, and not about just Goldens.
How weird.... did I just read comments from other people on FB? I could have sworn the article was about golden retrievers. LOL. Now I really feel bad for commenting when fighting off the worst cold ever!!!! I swear I didn't even have a fever!
 

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Finn
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How weird.... did I just read comments from other people on FB? I could have sworn the article was about golden retrievers. LOL. Now I really feel bad for commenting when fighting off the worst cold ever!!!! I swear I didn't even have a fever!
Sporting Breed Conformation Champions Should Also Be Good Field Dogs”
Sorry did not mean to make this so large and now I don’t know how to fix it!
 
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I had been thinking about going out to watch at least, but that dready depressiveness that surrounds the people in the sport makes me not want to. It stinks because it's not everyone. I have very good friends who play in field or even live breathe etc field - so it's not them. It's just other people.
"dready depressiveness"?
I have not yet seen that. Running a trial next weekend and I will watch for it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #109 ·
Is there another thread I'm missing? I haven't looked at GRF in like two weeks.

To answer the question, everyone has their own goals and I would never devalue someone's goals.
Personally I wish almost all of the new AKC titles were instead certificates of completion rather than titles : dock diving, CGCs, trick dogs, all-breed lure coursing, barn hunt, etc. They take little to no training, any dog can easily do them, they mean little about the dog's trainability, physical ability or his potential contributions to the gene pool. It's a fun thing to do on the weekend with your dog, which is great, but why does it need to be on his permanent record?
Titles I put some weight on are the OS/OD/VC program qualifiers : CH+, UD+, MH+, MACH, TDX+
By "+" I mean titles in that venue of greater accomplishment
None of these can be earned by "winging it" or being a weekend warrior. However, even with impressive titles like these, it doesn't tell you HOW the dog earned it. Plenty of bad dogs have earned these titles. The dog who took 56 tries for a Master Hunter. The dog shown for 5 years for a CH. The TDX that stumbled into it with little training (I know one!). It's still up to you to do your research and see dogs for yourself if you want to breed or buy.
I agree with most of the titles you mentioned. Some of them require little to no work. During all the lockdown stuff, I took my girl to some FastCAT events with exactly zero training. All we had was a strong chase instinct. She ended up with a title. I just wanted to get her out because I wasn’t doing agility at the time.The CGC itself is pretty basic and doesn’t take much But A and U do take a little more work. Of course it’s nothing for our dogs that we train from babies. It’s a great accomplishment for people just starting out though! The VHM titles are fairly easy too. Why do I have all the CGC titles? Because I’m an evaluator. If I can’t prove that I can train it, then I shouldn’t judge it either. (My opinion of course) My biggest issue is with people thinking trick dog titles are nothing. Sure, the first levels are pretty easy. But getting up to the top level is fairly challenging! I worked hard on my girl’s TKE title! Pilot will be working his way up too!

I totally agree on the greater accomplishments! Some dog take longer because their handler doesn’t know what they’re doing. (Still waiting for Pilot to fire me!😂) Taking 56 tries to get 1 title does seem like a lot though.
 

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I'm probably putting this under the wrong category.....

In another thread the value of different titles was brought up. So which titles hold more value to you as a breeder or buyer?

I've been working towards a possible Rally Championship and a Utility (obedience) title. So obviously, that's what's important to me right now. And I don't have time and money for field at the moment. My dogs have CCA's because I'm just not a conformation person. We do tricks titles too. They take more training than you think. Winx has an agility title and Pilot could probably get one. But agility isn't my focus right now.
I'll probably be alone in this. But of all the titles we won, my first dog winning his Novice A in three tries stands as one of the proudest days and titles in my life.
I'll never forget the feeling.
 

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I just see dogs that are thick skulled and are trained to do X that doesn't require too much thinking on their part. :D

I love having a smarter and more sensitive dog. <B
Guess you have not watched any modern field trials in person o think that these field trial dogs are not smart or sensitive. You can watch a dog running a test and see them making decisions inthe process if you pay attention!
 

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the party's crashing us
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You are not going to muscle a dog into running field trials successfully. It is such a finesse game. Dogs successful at this level have to be incredibly intelligent, intuitive and make good decisions based on their history of sound training. It's not all about energy and power. At every event they have to generalize and understand a concept on a field they have never set foot on, that is different from any other field they have ever run on. This doesn't happen in obedience competition, where every ring is set up identical to the next one and every routine is identical from the weekend before. The challenge of obedience is getting a dog to do the same thing happily and precisely 1,000 times with a non-reinforcing environment. The challenge of field work is to get a dog to see a picture and choose the right response when it is different every time and the external world is a more powerful influence than the handler. Dumb, headstrong dogs can't do this well. You can "see the gears turning" in a good field dog WAY more than any dog in the obedience ring who is operating off of rote memorization and pattern training.
 

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You are not going to muscle a dog into running field trials successfully. It is such a finesse game. Dogs successful at this level have to be incredibly intelligent, intuitive and make good decisions based on their history of sound training. It's not all about energy and power. At every event they have to generalize and understand a concept on a field they have never set foot on, that is different from any other field they have ever run on. This doesn't happen in obedience competition, where every ring is set up identical to the next one and every routine is identical from the weekend before. The challenge of obedience is getting a dog to do the same thing happily and precisely 1,000 times with a non-reinforcing environment. The challenge of field work is to get a dog to see a picture and choose the right response when it is different every time and the external world is a more powerful influence than the handler. Dumb, headstrong dogs can't do this well. You can "see the gears turning" in a good field dog WAY more than any dog in the obedience ring who is operating off of rote memorization and pattern training.
Excellent post.
An example of the intelligence of field trial retrievers; The “washouts” that don’t have what it takes to compete often go on to do literally every thing a retriever can do. Service dogs, rescue dogs, hunt tests, hunting…….
 
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Finn
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I agree with most of the titles you mentioned. Some of them require little to no work. During all the lockdown stuff, I took my girl to some FastCAT events with exactly zero training. All we had was a strong chase instinct. She ended up with a title.
That's exactly my plan with Finn....I know he'll chase a moving plastic bag, especially with one of his people calling him at the other end of the track. I don't intend to do any training before running him.
 

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My only issue with titles for Fast CAT, dock diving, etc, is when people try to use them as proof that their dog is 'working' or a 'high level performance dog' or as a reason that they should breed the dog.
 

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Kate
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You are not going to muscle a dog into running field trials successfully. It is such a finesse game. Dogs successful at this level have to be incredibly intelligent, intuitive and make good decisions based on their history of sound training. It's not all about energy and power. At every event they have to generalize and understand a concept on a field they have never set foot on, that is different from any other field they have ever run on. This doesn't happen in obedience competition, where every ring is set up identical to the next one and every routine is identical from the weekend before. The challenge of obedience is getting a dog to do the same thing happily and precisely 1,000 times with a non-reinforcing environment. The challenge of field work is to get a dog to see a picture and choose the right response when it is different every time and the external world is a more powerful influence than the handler. Dumb, headstrong dogs can't do this well. You can "see the gears turning" in a good field dog WAY more than any dog in the obedience ring who is operating off of rote memorization and pattern training.
I've always thought that the difference between a sport like field and a sport like obedience is that when you do field work with a dog, you use the traits and instincts that the dog already has and typically when the dogs are out there and they know there's birds out there, all the lights are on and gears ready to go.

In a sport like obedience, have literally had instructors tell me that it doesn't matter if I have a retriever, that I have to teach retrieves the same as if my dog was a pomeranian or a collie, because there will always be a time and situation where the dog will not "want" to go fetch a dumbbell. And basically there's no instincts for going over a jump or whatnot - everything is taught from scratch.

Ideally with a golden - they are everything and have those instincts and gears and all that. But there will always be those goldens who if you point a direction, they will come up and sniff your finger. There's goldens who KNOW there is a tennis ball in the house and they will find it immediately if you ever ask them to get it even if it's deeply buried way out of the way behind a couch and under all kinds of stuff. And there's goldens who will run past a tennis ball that's practically in plain sight repeatedly while searching for the same tennis ball. 🤣 And that's where training and trainability and methods you use makes up the difference.

With obedience, I am guessing the traits I really REALLY love - most of these are built up from the time the dogs were baby puppies that I brought home and also what the dogs had naturally.... it's that dog who is eagerly trying to guess the next thing I want him to do and is vibrating ready to work. I have that and LOVE IT. It's that Hermionne flinging herself out of her desk to guess the right answer attitude. <B

So imagine my eyes glazing over when I see dogs that just are not focused on their owners at all. Or if they are, it's the barest fraction of what I have and value in my dogs. I acknowledge that a huge chunk of that is foundation and conditioning. But I see that in goldens of all kinds. I do not often see it in other sporting breeds - even very well trained and high level competing ones. It's just very different.
 

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My only issue with titles for Fast CAT, dock diving, etc, is when people try to use them as proof that their dog is 'working' or a 'high level performance dog' or as a reason that they should breed the dog.
Add “shed dogs” to that list.
 

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So imagine my eyes glazing over when I see dogs that just are not focused on their owners at all.
Field trial retrievers have to focus on complex marking tests. They are well aware of their handlers as well, listening for cues and often seeming to have eyes in the back of their head.
On blind retrieves they run confidently in the direction sent, having complete faith in the handler to guide them to the bird.

Consider the fact that your eyes are glazing because you have no understanding of what you are watching.
 

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I may very well be wrong here, so please correct me- but it seems as though different sports require different levels of handler focus? If a dog running agility had 100% of its focus on its handler, it would crash into obstacles. If a dog running obedience was focused more on the things around it than the handler, it would not be as strong of an obedience competitor. It seems weird to judge dogs running in one sport, against the expectations for a dog running a different sport.
Am I missing something?
 
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