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Kate
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The titles I want to put on my dogs (AKC Obedience and Conformation).

I have respect for other titles, but admittedly do not go out of my way looking at pedigrees with those titles.
 

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Kate
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It's worth noting that a dog with field titles such as FC or MH is a dog who is obedient and biddable. So that is why an obedience title wouldn't really be of concern for me.
You've not seen field titled dogs struggling in obedience like I have though. :D

Most field bred dogs that I've seen dipping into obedience are hard headed and bull in a china shop tending vs what I want for obedience.

Obedience, I want a dog that can pivot on a dime with as little energy expended as possible. I want quiet and focused workers (who also are gorgeous). For obedience clean and precise is very important.
 

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Kate
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I don't doubt that at all. Field trial dogs today have to precisely mark multiple falls at 100 - 500 yards, with multiple retired guns, live fliers, complex terrain, cover, water entries, cross winds........... They have a lot on their plate. Very few dogs can focus on all this and still have impeccable line manners. With most dogs you can get one or the other but not both.
I just see dogs that are thick skulled and are trained to do X that doesn't require too much thinking on their part. :D

I love having a smarter and more sensitive dog. <B
 

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Kate
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Kate....enough already! You seem to know Golden's, surely you are not saying they are "thick skulled"! I hear this comment about Labs, but I also know it is not true. some are harder to train, but many, especially in Field Trials are quick learners, creative, and fast as lighting! Are you just kidding or what?
To be honest, I was talking about the labs while responding directly to SRW who is a lab person. :)

The FC goldens - I do not see many in obedience. Talking specific lines that are producing current FC dogs. Like Semper, etc.

I guess I think it would be awesome to see more FC goldens in obedience training, why don't their owners bring them? (innocent smile)

Performance line (obedience bred) - yes, definitely nothing to criticize them on performance. But many of them have innumerable faults.... :( <= But I guess at that point, I'm checking both the titles and the pedigrees. They would have the titles I'd want to see, but not the pedigrees.
 

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Kate
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OK, comment for you very sensitive tempered field people going WHEEEE over there. :)

I commented lightly earlier this morning because I could not resist pecking at somebody who has claimed many times that it's FC titles or field trial accomplishments or nothing. I find that perspective to be bothersome when you consider the fact that other breeds do not have the same chips on their shoulder towards people who are trying... where they themselves never try. Do I personally care? Nope. It is not my sport or dogs that he's dismissing while propping up his own dog or whatever it is he does. :)

All dogs that I've seen in obedience are coming from breeders like Tanbark and Wynwood with some random Topbrass here or there. The dogs come from high level obedience and agility pedigrees. These are the types of dogs I see.

I have never ever seen a FC golden show up at local trials. EVER. I've been training in obedience and putting obedience titles on my dogs since the 90's. Which was a very long time ago. ;)
 

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Kate
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I look for conformation titles only in the sense that I don’t like to see them. The closer up in a pedigree, the bigger a black mark they are, especially in labs and goldens. The conformation labs look like waddling beer kegs with toothpick legs and a tail that doesn’t look like a natural extension of its backbone. The conformation goldens look like small yellow Newfoundlands. And not the original type of Newfie that could hike halfway across the country and back on the Lewis and Clark expedition; they look like small versions of the horrible modern show Newfie, plodding around with too much fur, drooping jowls, and wrinkled foreheads. I can live with a CCA in a pedigree, but don’t really like to see it because I believe it perpetuates the show ring myth that you can tell much of anything useful about a dog by looking at it.
Can people tell you what your dog(s) look like?

Yeah.... post a stacked pic of your dog and invite people to comment.

But would people really jump at the invitation to critique?

Nope.

I personally think that dogs who never were bred for conformation.... they are what they are.

A lot of the times, it's owners behind them who have lost track of what a purebred dog is supposed to look like and sometimes they have a totally dysmorphic view of dogs that do not look like their own. Regardless of what is written into the breed standard.
 

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Kate
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Also as a puppy buyer, I broadly agree with this but I want to see some kind of field title in the not too distant past because I want to lower my risk of getting a puppy with a genetic tendency towards noise sensitivity/fear.

Can't get a field title if you're afraid of gunshots. I'm in Florida & we have fireworks going off from summer to NYE & having a bombproof dog is worth its weight in gold.
You forgot to mention the really crazy thunderstorms you have down there. o_O We do not have thunder that loud up here and I would not compare the sound of gunshots to that. :D
 

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Kate
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On the off chance it is sweet little me you are pecking at, that is not my opinion at all.
Surprising that you say that, since that has clearly been your opinion on this forum.

You have dismissed even MH titles on occasion and basically have stated the dogs aren't worth much if they do not have field trial titles.

Again, it's not my sport, so I don't really care beyond thinking that if people in conformation are trying to breed for the middle and produce pups who are GRCA DDHF (MH and CH titles on the dogs), their dogs should be appreciated for that. Plus, they are doing more to breed and qualify their dogs to show they are breeding for the whole dog.... than many in other sports do.

This is not me talking about my own dogs. It's me giving a nod to breeders and owners... and their fantastic dogs... who are everything goldens should be.
 

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Kate
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I have stated that MH titles are unfortunately not always what they should be. Some, hopefully most, MH dogs,are very respectable retrievers. I have also seen MH passes given to dogs that did not earn them.

Anyone that trains their own retriever to the MH standard should be very proud of their achievement.
Most that I know of are training their own dogs - including people who have dogs that look a bit like my 3 year old (big boned all that) and have gotten ten million MH passes with their golden. This breed is not in as deplorable shape as some would make it when you've got dogs like that coming out of nowhere. :)

Another dog I was gobsmacked to find out that he got his CH, MH, and even a UD in the same year. And regular normal people - and this dog had a lot of hair. More hair than my dogs! (ETA - dog is a CH MACH UDX MH - owner handled).

I honestly really hate the sniping about the titles people get - if they cross the line between conformation and field. They should get full credit - especially if owner handled, as you say. And many are.

The dog who took 10+ tries to get a JH title was a fantastic golden. He was everything to his owner and having seen him as an old dog - he was wonderful. And he has nice kids. <= No relation to my dogs so no bias speaking here.
 

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Kate
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So he was bred, that's just fantastic. Must have had a heck of a topline to outweigh his lack of intelligence?
He's produced many kids and grandkids who have gone on to do all the sports. A lot of the people with most sour grapes about him couldn't say the same about their own dogs.
 

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Kate
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I think it is the group you train with. I know many people who have done or are doing obedience and field/hunt work with their dogs during the same time frame. Some of the dogs are OTCH, MH and QAA. In fact, most are have at least UDX and SH.
But when teaching articles? I'm sure they keep things separate when teaching? I think we all know people who train their dogs for everything the first 2-3 years and then start entering trials and tests.

My instructor has put CH OTCH MH titles on her dogs (retrievers and terriers) and I know she has said there's a timing to train dogs to go to pile and teaching articles.
 

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Kate
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Well call me and others who train stupid. I know people who have done it during same timeframe. I have and had no issue. My dog understood the difference....Utility articles are completely different.

It seems that everyone knows how every skill should be trained and achieved when they have yet to achieve high level titles themselves.
Random curiosity.... did you and others wake up the last couple mornings with the plan to really turn off people from multiple sports? It's one thing for field people to sit around throwing insults at people and their dogs - because of course, they do. It another for obedience people to do the same.

I fully expect you to delete this post and go into hiding - which is why I quoted it. 🥴

It would be one thing for you to be insulting people who live somewhere like Utah or whatever where they have no training clubs. It's another to insult people who train in an area where sports like obedience is alive and thriving with many clubs in a close knit area and many many many people with OTCH's on their dogs. And you know, where people are actively training their dogs.
 

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Kate
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I didn’t intend to exclude these breeders because I know many of them and respect them. BUT some of them can get a little one dimensional at times. I agree with Lisa that it’s important to check if they have bred dogs that have gotten titles with their owners. Even if they aren’t titling themselves, they are producing dogs with the ability to be titled, and that makes a difference.
I was thinking about this comment a bit this morning while working and so on.... and I rethought my answer + I guess what I look for in a puppy + keeping favorite sports and all that out of it while answering?

I do like and prefer a very specific look and style of golden and pretty much that is what I've owned since I was a teenager. Medium gold. Smooth top coat and THICK undercoat. Big handsome boy heads with beautiful expressive DARK eyes. Dark DARK DARK pigment. Not excessive coat, but enough coat to make it clear to anyone that you own a golden retriever. Type of balanced structure in the dog where whether he's sitting or standing or whatever - he always knows where his feet should go on his own. The type of dog who is always underfoot or quick to press his big heavy head in your lap.

With temperaments, I want a dog who will live his entire life without ever once growling or showing his teeth. I want to be one of those completely daffy and dippy golden retriever owners at obedience trials who are always getting the border collie people anxious because I never worry (or have to worry) about my dog sharing space with other dogs.

In general, have found these dogs with conformation breeders.

For obedience purposes, it is worth mentioning that people with other breeds do not differentiate between show or performance style goldens when they are competing against us. ;) All goldens are the same wonderful show off breed that takes all the ribbons.

I have talked to people with show dogs and they are pretty happy about finishing CH titles because the next thing they are focusing on is obedience. It's not common, but it does happen more in our breed than some of the other breeds. Because while the dogs may not have been specifically bred for competing in obedience - they are fun to train.
 

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Kate
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Thank you for taking the time to explain this. I don’t think I’ll ever not be more of a pet person, but I am attempting to become more involved in dog sports and training with the puppy I have and would like to add another in two years or so.
Don't let some people scare you away from playing in different sports with your golden.

Conformation is a sport that can be difficult to get into for a variety of reasons.... but all the other sports should open to somebody with a golden retriever. We have the benefit of owning a breed that is pure delight to play in any game with. You do not get that versatility and joy of life in other breeds.

I was chatting with somebody recently who was jumping into obedience with her dog (not a golden) and... she was freaking out because she entered 3 trials without doing any training. I basically told her that at the beginner levels, a very green an untrained dog can't get into too much trouble. That worst thing that could happen is she NQ.... but lots of people NQ all the time at trials and it's not going to end the world, nor will people look down on her and her dog.

Her breed of dog is one that rarely to never shows up in obedience and when it does, it turns heads and makes it very thrilling when they do well. And I assured her that with a lot of kitchen doodles every day, her dog would be fine.

One advantage she has with a conformation dog (meaning her dog has been showing for the last 1-2 years) is her dog is completely unflappable when it comes to other dogs, people, noise, etc. But even people without conformation dogs.... they should do just fine.

The motto for showing in conformation for me is.... you can't win if you don't show up. And for obedience and other sports, aim for the easier titles in the these sports and train with somebody that will teach you to train the upper level stuff like articles and jumping and whatnot. You may never show your dog in utility (although with many changes in obedience since the 90's, it's definitely a lot easier to get dogs into utility than it was before!!!!), but it a lot of fun to teach everything to the dogs and more than that you have the very best dogs around the house when they are trained to that level.
 

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Kate
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Who is that? The only CH MACH UDX MH Goldens are Carbide, Caymus and Ryzin...neither owner-handled to all their titles (Carbide & Ryzin had handlers for the CH, Caymus was professionally handled in field (Sharon Long), breed and agility) and NONE are big, overdone or hairy dogs. I can tell you this because Carbide is the son of my dog Fisher, who was as light coated as a show dog can get, and I have personally groomed and handled Ryzin in the show ring.
Was one of the dogs you mention here.

Did not consider excessive in any way, just noting that the boy had coat on him (it was longer than my dog's coat) and it obviously didn't sink him in the water or trip him up on the obstacles. :)

I was under the impression he was owner handled the whole way - only saw him being handled by one of his owners.

Other thread was mostly tearing down of the breed as it is today. Which is sad.
 

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Kate
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Everyone here loves the breed. It's really the extremes that are troublesome (conformation dogs with zero instincts, too much bone/fur, field dogs that are poorly built or lacking in certain areas).
I think when people have their own biases based on their own dogs, it can be impossible to move them closer to the center where they will even be able to talk kindly and considerately to other dog owners.

I suppose I have my own biases because I've owned one style of golden for the last 30 years or whatever it has been. I see dogs that resemble vizslas to me and I do not really feel anything about them. It's not about finding dogs to be ugly. It's just ambivalence about dogs where they just weren't bred for the whole thing.

Dogs that clearly were bred for it all - those I do greatly admire. But their owners do not participate in these conversations. Anney is one owner who does it all with her boys (and now her girlie), but there are others.

Also people who get neurotic about coats - I seriously want them to borrow a rough collie for a few days. Golden retrievers even with show coats are WONDERFUL and very easy to keep clean and coats sorted. And despite people making a mountain out of a molehill about properly grooming a golden, it is basic.
 

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Kate
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I have both a conformation type golden and a field type golden. My conformation girl is definitely much more work grooming wise than my field girl, who I would describe as very "wash and wear". But she looks nothing like a visla, that's for sure. I will say that my dogs fit the stereotypes well, as my conformation type girl has little to no interest in retrieving and my field type girl will go all day on ducks or bumpers etc. You would probably disapprove of my field girl by looks, but she's an amazing dog with drive and talent IMO.
Do you have a picture of the conformation type girl?

I dabbled in field with mine 3+ years ago. That was before my younger guy was born, but my 3 year old was a pup at the time. He was FUN to work with for field, but he wanted to eat the birds. Which might be corrected with ecollars, but I was and still am unwilling to go that route. I was going to revisit this year esp with the national being in town and the field stuff being only 30 minutes away, but thanks to a lot of the yacking on this forum, I just feel dread about getting back into it. And I just don't want to anymore. It's not about my dogs. It's never been about the dogs. I had been thinking about going out to watch at least, but that dready depressiveness that surrounds the people in the sport makes me not want to. It stinks because it's not everyone. I have very good friends who play in field or even live breathe etc field - so it's not them. It's just other people.

For obedience - I can't say enough how happy I am with my dogs. Their breeders hear about it often. You do not get that trainability in every dog, so the breeders themselves mattered.

The vizsla comparison for me it the bone or lack of. The heads/expressions obviously are different. We all know a golden retriever just by looking at its face, doesn't matter field or conf.
 
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