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aka Shelby
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I think you are misunderstanding. All three lines go through that pond. There is no actual cheating around the water. I just meant in the dogs mind a lot of times they want to go fat into the water and not cut a piece of corner. Especially rolling down hill. There are three lines in that pond. One to the blind cutting a corner, one in the middle to the long retired and one cutting the other corner to the short bird.

I think before you start posting you need to reread and look at the picture. I put a line for the blind, it clearly goes into the corner of that pond.

This is becoming very annoying to me. Please just look at the photo and the water again and realize you are mistaken so we don't begin to confuse other readers. I believe you honed in on the word cheat from my first post but didn't understand or I wasn't clear what I meant. When I went to explain it you had it in your mind that I was asking the dog to cheat without opening your mind up to read the actual words I was saying. The cheating was a mental look to the dog....I wasn't asking for actual REAL cheating.
 

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aka Shelby
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and one more thing.....A ton of the opens I've watched have indeed had dogs running past water to other water on blinds or marks. In fact there was a land blind set up TWICe by two different judges where the dogs had to run between to ponds and not get in them. Proof couldn't do it, he kept trying to bale in the water. Lots of dogs can't do that stuff but judges set it up. So maybe this is the new judges trick? I don't know. But all of that is besides the point. thats not what we were doing. We were just cutting a slice of that pond on a steep slope that rolled them in fat. They had to fight it and hold the angle and cut that corner. Its a very common, SRW.
 

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I think you are misunderstanding. All three lines go through that pond. There is no actual cheating around the water. I just meant in the dogs mind a lot of times they want to go fat into the water and not cut a piece of corner. Especially rolling down hill. There are three lines in that pond. One to the blind cutting a corner, one in the middle to the long retired and one cutting the other corner to the short bird.

I think before you start posting you need to reread and look at the picture. I put a line for the blind, it clearly goes into the corner of that pond.

This is becoming very annoying to me. Please just look at the photo and the water again and realize you are mistaken so we don't begin to confuse other readers. I believe you honed in on the word cheat from my first post but didn't understand or I wasn't clear what I meant. When I went to explain it you had it in your mind that I was asking the dog to cheat without opening your mind up to read the actual words I was saying. The cheating was a mental look to the dog....I wasn't asking for actual REAL cheating.
I did misunderstand. Your photo comes up very small on my computer and I can't determine the exact lines much less the terrain.
The phrase "Young dogs don't like to cheat water if they are being told to" made me think you were doing just that.
Again, I did not mean to offend.
 

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I've been working hard on flushing versus pointing. I went through a crate of 13 pigeons of the weekend. I think I've gotten Riot to quit pointing, Ugh I never thought this could possibly be a problem with a golden.
1. Set out taped pigeons in the brush. Sent both dogs out together. They raced to find the birds and flush them and catch them first. The competition aspect was excellent.
2. Threw taped pigeons up in the air in the general direction towards a brushy field while dogs watched. Birds flew for 150 feet and cruised through tall bushes/small trees and brush. Sent dogs to find birds. They came up with the birds every time, and they were pretty happy about it.
3. Used birds that weren't taped and just dizzy so they would fly fast up and away from the dogs when the dogs found them (no tape to slow or prevent the birds from flying). They lunged and chased after those birds and did everything they could to get them. Just what I wanted. They did return on a whistle recall and I didn't have to use the collar, but I let them go for quite a run before recalling them. I wanted them to get that excitement of chasing those birds and the birds getting away.

I think the light bulb might have gone off for him. He finally figured out that if the bird is live it might fly away. I really now regret not using tape wing pigeons when he was a puppy, he may not have developed this habit if he hadn't. At this point I don't give a **** if he sits on the flush or not, I just want him to get that bird with everything he's got. Who would have thought something so simple could become a problem. I encourage everyone to get some pigeons for your young dogs, don't make the mistake I did and skip that step. Yes maybe now I have a dog that won't sit on the flush, but I also don't have a dog that's going to wait for me to tell him to flush the bird.
And Miss Ruby I think has learned a lot too.
Grouse season starts in Aug 25th. I want 2 dogs working the field and bringing home some dinner.
 

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A couple blinds, one with a diversion bird. This is an older areal photo, some trees have been removed. The terrain is steep, points are several feet above water level. It adds a little challenge, dogs are more incline to skirt around the points and will be out of sight if they don't take a good cast off.

Just good training blinds not terribly difficult. We thought the bottom blind would be a great one for a Qual. A lot of little challenges in it but still a very fair test for younger dogs.

The top blind has a little more going on, even without the diversion bird.
Picking up the diversion was more difficult than expected for some dogs. There was very little wind and we used a thunder launcher. Two AFC titled dogs had huge hunts deep of the mark and were finally handled. Jake took a line right to the bumper and back, if he had missed it by a couple feet he may have had a big hunt as well.

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Discussion Starter #47
I didn't have much time to train this morning, but ran a couple of land singles (~125 & ~150 yards), each with a ~225 yard blind tight (~10 feet) behind the "Tac-Man" gunners and Bumper Boys. Both dogs are doing these pretty well, but I like to visit fundamental concepts on a regular basis. This morning I put out visible-to-dog blind stakes so I was "ensured" of getting a good, tight line behind the gunners.
If I have time this evening, I'll run similar marks/blinds without the blind stakes to see if I get good carry-over, in addition to (probably) some water marks.
FTGoldens
 

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A couple blinds ran in opposite directions with a light cross wind.
First one ran north to south with a thunder launcher used for a poison bird, thrown away from the line.
Some randomly mowed strips create some good cover changes and angles.
The second blind was ran to the north across the pond and up the center of a narrow channel on the other side. Several cover changes both sides of pond.
Jake did well on both today, took and carried casts very precisely.

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Discussion Starter #49
If I have time this evening, I'll run similar marks/blinds without the blind stakes to see if I get good carry-over, in addition to (probably) some water marks.
FTGoldens
The woes of a working field trialer ... during the hour after work that it's cool enough to train and there's daylight, it rained! Note that it rained for ONE HOUR ... but it was that one hour that I could train. Oh well, hopefully things work out better for training tomorrow.
 

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876193
876194

Land Series of this weekend AM
Triple, a flier and 2 retired.
1R is wide to the left, 325-350 yards? 2R and flier fairly tight.
Terrain is steep, all marks across a deep valley.
The majority of the dogs climbed the hill short of the long retired gun, some recovered and came around to the bird. A few went wide and deep of the middle retired.
Jake was perfect on the flier and middle retired, climbed he hill going to the long retired but found the gunner and went quickly to the bird. Perfection is what we hope for, second best is watching your dog think himself out of trouble.
I think 34 were called back to the LB. 72 entered, not sure how many scratched.

The land blind wasn't so great. A nice challenging blind with a diversion mark picked up after. Everything pulling the dogs right and terrain and cover made recovery difficult for the dogs that got offline that direction. In hindsight I was over cautious and lined Jake up a little to much to the left. Had to give two right back casts, first he didn't take enough and brushed past the wrong side of the first "goal post". Second cast he took too much and went to the wrong side of a round bale before I could stop him. Last cast he took correctly but got hung up in drag back scent so I had to give a loud verbal with a back cast. We were out at that point anyway. Jake is used to drag back scent, just not 20+ dogs worth in tall wet grass.
The Golden nose sometimes saves you and sometimes hurts you. We don't often take the time to put down scent on the lines to blinds in training but clearly we should.
 

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This was the water blind for the Qualifying Stake I judged last weekend. Approximately 150 yards through an S curve of a creek that feeds a small lake. Running and swimming water, angled entries and exits and a couple points of land to hit. The blind was about 40 yards past the last water exit. The dogs pass left of a mound with trees, to the right is a very inviting open field.
For anyone new to the game, I think this is a good example of what to expect in a Q blind.
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Discussion Starter #52
Judging a Qual, then winning an Amateur ... busy weekend!

A couple weeks ago I ran a Qual and had time to talk with the two judges, whom I've known for a very long time; between the two of them, there is at least 75 years of retriever field trialing and training experience! We discussed their water blind, which was similar to the one you set up ... angle entry, get in, get out, get in, get out. We discussed how 15 +/- years ago, for a Qual the dogs were never asked to get out of the water and back in, but instead always swam past any points or shorelines. Quals, as well as all other stakes, continue to become more demanding.

FTGoldens
 

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Training alone today. Wind left to right.
A triple; 1R and 2R thrown left then I drove away to the right on an ATV.
The go bird, 3 is a thunder launcher shot to the left.
Driving away from a mark tends to pull a dog in that direction even more than walking away does.

After picking up the go bird (3) I sent Jake to 2R. He faded a little right in the water because of the wind then corrected himself half way across the pond and went straight to the bird. A very good mark with wind, terrain and drive away all influencing to the right.
He returned and lined up for the last mark, 1R. I could tell that he remembered exactly where it was at. I could also tell that he intended to go around the right end of the tall cover on the far shore of the pond. He was looking at where the bird landed and his spine was lined up to the right end of the cover. I told him no and he line up correctly for the mark but I knew he was still thinking about going around the cover. Half way across the pond he turned just a little right, I stopped him, gave a low nick and a left back cast. He took the cast through the cover and to the mark.
Going around a point of cover, like he wanted to, will often put a dog in a difficult place to recover from on a more complex mark in a trial.
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Discussion Starter #54
Very nice set up.
For me, it would be a tough call to stop and give a correction on that memory mark, especially since it was retired and the third retrieve of the set up. Obviously, it worked out just fine with Jake, but certainly could create confusion with a less experienced dog.
With the wind pushing him to the right, with the go bird pushing him to the right, with the nearer shoreline pulling him to the right, with the big open boulevard pulling him to the right, there are a lot of factors involved in addition to the passage of time allowing for the possibility of him not precisely remembering where the mark landed but instead remembering where the gunner was standing.
Nonetheless, I understand the thought process and the assumption that he was thinking about going around the cover.
FTGoldens
 

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For me, it would be a tough call to stop and give a correction on that memory mark, especially since it was retired and the third retrieve of the set up.
Very Good point. I very rarely handle, much less correct, on a retired mark. Both can lead to big problems.
I did in this case only because I was able to read Jake's intent at the line and again when he turned.
I only gave a low 2 nick and a quick cast back to his original line, kind of like tapping him on the head and saying "I know what you are up to, knock it off".
 

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An example of what we train for. Amateur stake, lasts series water marks, a triple, two retired guns and a shot flier.
The ideal route to the long bird has a couple re-entries. A nice setup, the judges did a great job.
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Test dog about to run in the 4th series of last weekends field trial amateur stake. A wide triple, couldn't get it in one photo.
Retired gun in the middle thrown first. Stand out gun on the right was second and thrown sharply back. Last bird a shot flier on the left. Multiple water entries on the flier and middle retired.
I think there were ten dogs called back to the last series. Eight completed it, there were 4 JAMS and the placements.
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Discussion Starter #60
SRW,
CONGRATULATIONS ON JAKE'S AMATEUR THIRD!
That boy is HOT, finishing his last 3 Amateurs!
Just one more point to qualify!
Good luck this coming weekend!
FTGoldens
 
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