[Natic]

Remember that nobody here is disparaging the dogs as companions or pets, nor are they attacking the breeder. They are simply comparing what the breeder does to the GRCA Code of Ethics, in which this breeder does not come to standard. Does this mean the dogs are unhealthy? Not inherently no. Does this affect them in any way as companions or reduce their value as companions? No.

This is simply an objective comparison of what we expect of our breeders. All breeding animals should have cardiologist heart, elbows, hips, eyes yearly. On the bitch, her eye exam is out of date and she was bred. Could the breeder have an updated eye exam and never notified the OFA? Yes. However, we can only go off of what we see. The male never had all of his clearances.

Does this in any way affect your dogs or anybody else's form this breeder? It doesn't at all. These dogs could still be perfectly healthy. We are only looking at what we can see and what we know is expected.

Apologies, but they are indeed disparaging the breeder. That is exactly what the first few posts did. To be 100% honest I came across this post before getting my dog, and almost didn’t go with them because of it. But my husband had already paid the deposit so I just crossed my fingers. Glad he did.
And as to what you said about the eye exam, sorry to say you are mistaken. Her eye exam was good from August 4 2018 to August 4 2019, and she was bred in May 2019. My dog was born May 24th 2019

 

[LJack]

Yes, thank you for proving my point that neither of these dogs have full and verifiable health certifications. The mom did at one point. That shows us the the breeder knows how to get full certifications and has access to appropriate veterinary specialists but on all of their dogs (that I have found as of this post) fail to have full and verifiable health certifications.

There is no good reason for a breeder where this is clearly a Family income source to not pay the $15 recording fee for heart certification or the $12 for the first eye certification and $8 for each additional year certifications. Not saying this is the case but the exam forms are not the certification for a reason. They can and have been altered or produced as complete counterfeits. Sending in to OFA stops that possibility as OFA can compare the research copy send directly from the vet with what ever the breeder is sending to determine if it is a true and accurate copy and from there issues the actual certification.

This is nothing against your personal dog which sounds like they have done wonderfully in your family.

All this is, is taking this breeder and applying the standards for ethical breeding in regards to health certification. When that is done, this breeder fails repeatedly. If you are happy to continue to support these practice, that is your decision to make. These threads are read by a bunch of lurkers though and they deserve to know that if they are looking for a breeder that is meeting the minimum health standards for responsible breeding, this is not a good fit for them.

Honestly, it would be so much easier if they would just do what they know they should. The fact they don’t will always result in the facts of their program being discussed.

Female with expired eye certification that shows they know how to get full certification -

https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1797214

Their popular stud dog missing Heart and Eye certifications. Also has no offspring with full certifications including as of today three that are missing a hip or an elbow certification and three that have neither hip or elbow certifications. This means they were never tested or failed due to dysplasia.

https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1797214

 

[Tagrenine]

Apologies, but they are indeed disparaging the breeder. That is exactly what the first few posts did. To be 100% honest I came across this post before getting my dog, and almost didn’t go with them because of it. But my husband had already paid the deposit so I just crossed my fingers. Glad he did.
And as to what you said about the eye exam, sorry to say you are mistaken. Her eye exam was good from August 4 2018 to August 4 2019, and she was bred in May 2019. My dog was born May 24th 2019

I do need to apologize, I saw 2016, and not 2018.

 

[LJack]

whats more, my girl sprained her ankle playing with a very rowdy German shepherd, so we did xrays and an MRI. So the vet I mentioned is actually an orthopedic surgeon. I will go ahead and say he probably knows more about dog hips than you do, unless you are also an orthopedic vet, in which case once I see your credentials I will gladly send the X-ray and MRI results for you to verify!

If you feel you need the additional information, you should have the vet send them in to OFA. If the views are correct for OFA and your dog was old enough at the time of the x-ray, OFA will issue a certification assuming there is no dysplasia.

I don‘t see anyone claiming to be an orthopedic vet on the thread. No one has to be a vet of any kind to verify health certifications. That easily independently verifiable function of OFA is there for the every day Joe.

 

[hkjohnson13]

Guess who’s back and just caught up!!! You are clearly grasping at straws.
I’m just here to back up @Natic because it appears we have puppies from the same litter. At the time our dogs dam (Siomha) was bred her health clearances were clearly 100% accessible and up to date. You are correct to notice that Hunter (the sire) does not show clearances for Heart and Eyes, but like a previously stated, all you have to do is ask and those documents are willingly made available. As a consumer I could personally care less weather the clearances are reported to the “proper” agencies, as long as they are being performed and can be accessed. An ethical breeder to me, is one that preforms the proper tests, which they do. Who cares who they directly report to if they have indeed been completed? Also our dogs from that litter aren’t yet 2 years of age so there is clearly no OFA link to show any certifications. They’re too young. According to the previous post made by @LJack, the GRCA Code of ethics only requires eyes to be checked on annual basis, the rest are fine to be done after 2 years of age and only once....which they have clearly done. When you say none of Hunters offspring have all their correct clearances listed, that has nothing at all to do with LCG, that’s on whoever owns those dogs. And really, unless they’re breeding, it doesn’t matter at all. I’m here to argue the original thread that LCG are “unethical breeders” when that is clearly not the case. They love their dogs. They have a huge family that helps care for their dogs. They test and certify their dogs. All it takes is a quick phone call to truly connect with these people and ask questions to realize they are indeed ethical. The only thing this site makes me question is the ethics and morals of other breeders and moderators. My version of ethics must clearly differ from yours. I would never publicly bash someone in the same industry as I, as to me it’s just in poor taste. Can’t we be a community of helping hands instead! If you feel this breeder (or any) is doing something so wrong, how about reach out to them and lend a helping hand. Maybe walk them through why you feel that even though they are preforming the health clearances in a proper fashion, you feel it’s important that they be posted to the correct reporting sites. Give people the benifit of the doubt. We all have lives outside of our careers, and I’ll be the first to admit I’ve been late or forgotten to report something or pay a fee to a certain agency. All that’s important to me as a consumer is that the tests have been completed. Period. And when asked, they gladly have record of them. The only grounds you all have to state that this breeder is unethical is that their certifications aren’t listed on OFA....if that’s your only reason that’s pathetic. To any potential buyers, just know....all you have to do is ask, and i promise you will be provided what you need and treated with kindness Also, you will clearly have a supportive community of other LCG owners Cheering you on, and we do regular meet ups, which are super fun! I have met some of the greatest people and lifelong friends through my dogs, and for that i am truly grateful!

 

[Natic]

If you feel you need the additional information, you should have the vet send them in to OFA. If the views are correct for OFA and your dog was old enough at the time of the x-ray, OFA will issue a certification assuming there is no dysplasia.

I don‘t see anyone claiming to be an orthopedic vet on the thread. No one has to be a vet of any kind to verify health certifications. That easily independently verifiable function of OFA is there for the every day Joe.

Yes, thank you for proving my point that neither of these dogs have full and verifiable health certifications. The mom did at one point. That shows us the the breeder knows how to get full certifications and has access to appropriate veterinary specialists but on all of their dogs (that I have found as of this post) fail to have full and verifiable health certifications.

There is no good reason for a breeder where this is clearly a Family income source to not pay the $15 recording fee for heart certification or the $12 for the first eye certification and $8 for each additional year certifications. Not saying this is the case but the exam forms are not the certification for a reason. They can and have been altered or produced as complete counterfeits. Sending in to OFA stops that possibility as OFA can compare the research copy send directly from the vet with what ever the breeder is sending to determine if it is a true and accurate copy and from there issues the actual certification.

This is nothing against your personal dog which sounds like they have done wonderfully in your family.

All this is, is taking this breeder and applying the standards for ethical breeding in regards to health certification. When that is done, this breeder fails repeatedly. If you are happy to continue to support these practice, that is your decision to make. These threads are read by a bunch of lurkers though and they deserve to know that if they are looking for a breeder that is meeting the minimum health standards for responsible breeding, this is not a good fit for them.

Honestly, it would be so much easier if they would just do what they know they should. The fact they don’t will always result in the facts of their program being discussed.

Female with expired eye certification that shows they know how to get full certification -

https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1797214

View attachment 872559

Their popular stud dog missing Heart and Eye certifications. Also has no offspring with full certifications including as of today three that are missing a hip or an elbow certification and three that have neither hip or elbow certifications. This means they were never tested or failed due to dysplasia.

https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1797214

View attachment 872560

The fema

If you feel you need the additional information, you should have the vet send them in to OFA. If the views are correct for OFA and your dog was old enough at the time of the x-ray, OFA will issue a certification assuming there is no dysplasia.

I don‘t see anyone claiming to be an orthopedic vet on the thread. No one has to be a vet of any kind to verify health certifications. That easily independently verifiable function of OFA is there for the every day Joe.

lJack, a couple of things: First, my dog was born May 2029. If you can read you will see her eye certification was still valid.
second, my response about the orthopedic vet was because the person responding to me said vets didn’t do thorough examinations. So honestly, your two responses make no sense. All that is left for me to think (being as I am not a breeder or expert, just a very happy dog mom) is that you have an axe to grind. And you are trying to bully someone online (which sadly is the world we live in)
When I asked for certifications before getting my dog, they sent them all to me. I had numerous conversations with them, and as I stated the proof is in the pudding. They have a great community of customers who love them (like me) who all share photos and stories and get together for their fur babies to play. Many of us are repeat customers and will continue to be for as long as we are around. In the way that is how they will keep surviving despite people like you.
maybe everyone should be more like our beloved goldens and just be kind. But it is clear some of you could learn more from your dogs.

 

[LJack]

@LJack, the GRCA Code of ethics only requires eyes to be checked on annual basis, the rest are fine to be done after 2 years of age and only once....which they have clearly done.

Please show me where I said any thing else.

There is a standard for ethics in breeding Goldens. Actually standards, best practice and such are common in most fields and not a concept unique to dog breeding.

The definition for ethical breeding in our country is set by the Golden Retriever Club of America.
The Standard for health testing is:
Hips - X-rayed at or after 24 months of age and submitted to OFA or PennHIP for evaluation. If PennHIP is used the results should be a
submitted to OFA recording publicly.
Elbows- X-rayed at or after 24 months of age and submitted to OFA for evaluation.
Heart - Tested at or after 12 months of age with a veterinary Cardiologist and submitted to OFA for certification.
Eyes - Tested annually by a veterinary ophthalmologist and submitted to OFA for certification.
DNA - Testing recommended based on the risks associated with the individual dogs.

Yes, it is clear that you are happy to support a breeder who doesn’t meet the standards for responsible breeding in the US as outlined by the not for profit expert organizations of GRCA and OFA and that is fine for you. It does not change the fact that this breeder is not meeting those standards, it just means they meet you own personal standards which is your subjective opinion.

As a consumer I could personally care less weather the clearances are reported to the “proper” agencies, as long as they are being performed and can be accessed. An ethical breeder to me, is one that preforms the proper tests, which they do. Who cares who they directly report to if they have indeed been completed?

To me personally I would find the production record for my dog’s parent important. If a dog has offspring listed on OFA it is because there is at least some testing going on. Why is that testing happening? I think it is a reasonable conclusion to think that it is likely because that are being considered to be incorporated in a breeding program as it is very rare for everyday owners to pursue certifications. So if the siblings or half-siblings of my dog have documented issues or are completely missing certification, I would be concerned. When you see missing hips and/or elbows it can be for only two reasons, the dogs were not tested or they failed. Again if other testing is done it begs the question of did they fail? It is something I as an owner of a closely related dog would be concerned over. Your mileage may and probably does vary.

When you say none of Hunters offspring have all their correct clearances listed, that has nothing at all to do with LCG, that’s on whoever owns those dogs. And really, unless they’re breeding, it doesn’t matter at all.

By the way you will noticed I have never called you a name, attacked your character or your intelligence. I would appreciate the same courtesy. I am providing facts and documentation to back it up. If you choose to ignore that, that is your prerogative.

 

[hkjohnson13]

@LJack we can agree to disagree, you think they haven’t performed proper testing/certification....while I have proof they have. That’s the end of the story. I’m providing actual facts, you are providing accusations of things not true (other than you’re right, all things haven’t been reported to OFA, which I stated I don’t care about.) You stating you have never attacked my intelligence is laughable. Every post you make is attacking my intelligence. We will never agree on this, and I could honestly care less about your opinion, all I hope is that others who read this will see my side and believe the facts from an actual customer.

 

[LJack]

lJack, a couple of things: First, my dog was born May 2029. If you can read you will see her eye certification was still valid.

Please show me where I said that.

Yes, thank you for proving my point that neither of these dogs have full and verifiable health certifications. The mom did at one point. That shows us the the breeder knows how to get full certifications and has access to appropriate veterinary specialists but on all of their dogs (that I have found as of this post) fail to have full and verifiable health certifications.

second, my response about the orthopedic vet was because the person responding to me said vets didn’t do thorough examinations.

Please show me where I indicated an Orthopedic specialist was not capable of rendering an diagnosis.

Pet vets are not doing a very thorough examination of hips and eyes (Or elbows or hearts). So, while it is a good thing that there is nothing severe enough to be impacting your dog’s health, breeding dogs should have had certifications by the appropriate veterinary specialists at the appropriate ages. This breeder is not doing that.

If your dog has had health checks beyond the well check, we would be thrilled to see a link to OFA that shows at least a dog they produced has full and verifiable health certifications when not a single dog listed on their website does not.

I am not trying to create straw man arguments or miscaraterize what you are saying. I would appreciate if you would extend me the same courtesy.

There is a standard of responsible breeding, they are not following it. If that is okay with you, great. I am not debating your choices.

 

[mylissyk]

1. 
   
   Funny you should mention Hunter, and I’m glad you did, because he just happens to be the Sire to all 3 of my dogs. With you being such “a huge advocate for informed consumers,” it should make you happy to hear that that is exactly what I happen to be.
   When looking into purchasing a puppy, I asked for physical copies of Hunter’s cardiac and eye exams which were given to me without hesitation (and I still have). Hunters hips/elbows are rated as good so looking any further into his parents is really irrelevant. Correct me If I’m wrong, but checking heart and eyes is a fairly new practice. Again to my understanding, some vets still only check hips and elbows and many still don’t yet have the technology (especially in more rural areas) to submit things to OFA. This is why it should be up to consumers to ask for these documents (being informed consumers and all). Also many of the LCG sires and dams are from foreign countries (as is the Dam to one of my females.) All of these imports have the proper clearances from their countries of origin. Just ask them for the documents, they have no problem providing them. Why should we be putting these dogs under more stress and anesthesia to run the same tests over again? I think this is a question more “informed consumers” should be asking! In America, sadly we have become brainwashed into believing over testing and over vaccinating is what’s appropriate for our companions. I don’t think it’s any secret that that is probably one of the main reasons our dogs just don’t live as long as those in most other countries that don’t put their dogs through such strenuous/stressful predicaments over and over. We can do better and I solute LCG for doing their part in what they believe is best for the health and well being of their family pets which just so happen to be Sires and Dams to amazing puppies!

If you have copies of the health certificates, would you be willing to share them here?

 

[LJack]

@LJack we can agree to disagree, you think they haven’t performed proper testing/certification....while I have proof they have.

Yes, I can see you disagree and as I have repeatedly said that is your personal decision to do so. I am not disputing your right to choose a breeder not following the standards. You don’t even have to care about them. Others might though.

I am not making up the standards and have posted not only links to the standards but also proof these dogs don’t have appropriate health certifications. You say you have proof they do but so far have not provided it. So, okay let’s set aside the OFA online component. Provide the proof that the sire had a Cardiologist heart exam form and a current eye exam for for your most recent puppy.

 

[hkjohnson13]

If you have copies of the health certificates, would you be willing to share them here?

 

[hkjohnson13]

Yes, I can see you disagree and as I have repeatedly said that is your personal decision to do so. I am not disputing your right to choose a breeder not following the standards. You don’t even have to care about them. Others might though.

I am not making up the standards and have posted not only links to the standards but also proof these dogs don’t have appropriate health certifications. You say you have proof they do but so far have not provided it. So, okay let’s set aside the OFA online component. Provide the proof that the sire had a Cardiologist heart exam form and a current eye exam for for your most recent puppy.

 

[hkjohnson13]

View attachment 872562

I will have to go through my records tomorrow to find the eye exam as it’s been close to a year since I got my most recent puppy and have to find it, but it’s there

 

[LJack]

Okay, that is not an OFA Cardiac exam form. Do you think that looks like an all clear heart exam?

 

[hkjohnson13]

Okay, that is not an OFA Cardiac exam form. Do you think that looks like an all clear heart exam?

I do not, nor do I care to know.
As I previously stated I don’t care about this OFA organization. His heart was evaluated and deemed normal from a cardiologist at UW, and that is more than enough for me. I’m sure they likely have the OFA form you’re requesting, I just never cared to ask for that much detail. Are you saying a cardiologist doesn’t know how to do their job?

 

[Tagrenine]

Okay, I did double check Hunter. Per the website, they state that he has cardiac and eyes. However, clicking on the link for cardiac and eyes, it is linked to a different dog. This dog is "Just Fisher". Could be an error on their part, could not be, who knows. However, I feel it is a pretty serious error.

Finally, on Hunter's OFA link, it links to another completely different dog called "Ranger's Paw Patrol".

According to k9 Data, Fisher was a dog owner by these breeders. Maybe they still own him, but he is not listed as a sire on the website. According to OFA, this sire has produced at least one offspring with hip dysplasia. This dog is Prangley's Hana Banana. What is worse however, is that this sire has produced two dogs with elbow dysplasia: VS Faith is Mountain Fishing and VS Hailey's a Fishing.

Finally, this dogs has two full siblings with hip dysplasia, one "borderline" and the other "mild". The borderline dog also has elbow dysplasia. This dog also has two half siblings with elbow dysplasia.

According to K9 Data, Fisher was bred to a dog named Chelan's River of Dreams, which is also owned by your breeder. Chelan is out of Hunter. Chelan's dam, Liberty's River of Justice II, has no OFA clearances. I think part of the reason this dog was never tested, was that the dam of this dog, Denzil's Golden Oh Maya, was bred with hip dysplasia. On top of that, the sire, Denzil's Loveshack Ryder, also produced dogs with hip dysplasia.

I am so so happy for you. I am happy you have healthy wonderful dogs. That does not take away from the fact that I found this information from the breeder's own website. This is readily accessible. Not only do we know that some of the dogs are not fully health tested, until you or the breeder proves otherwise. But that this breeder has bred dogs without testing that come from actual dysplastic dogs.

 

[hkjohnson13]

Okay, I did double check Hunter. Per the website, they state that he has cardiac and eyes. However, clicking on the link for cardiac and eyes, it is linked to a different dog. This dog is "Just Fisher". Could be an error on their part, could not be, who knows. However, I feel it is a pretty serious error.

Finally, on Hunter's OFA link, it links to another completely different dog called "Ranger's Paw Patrol".

According to k9 Data, Fisher was a dog owner by these breeders. Maybe they still own him, but he is not listed as a sire on the website. According to OFA, this sire has produced at least one offspring with hip dysplasia. This dog is Prangley's Hana Banana. What is worse however, is that this sire has produced two dogs with elbow dysplasia: VS Faith is Mountain Fishing and VS Hailey's a Fishing.

Finally, this dogs has two full siblings with hip dysplasia, one "borderline" and the other "mild". The borderline dog also has elbow dysplasia. This dog also has two half siblings with elbow dysplasia.

According to K9 Data, Fisher was bred to a dog named Chelan's River of Dreams, which is also owned by your breeder. Chelan is out of Hunter. Chelan's dam, Liberty's River of Justice II, has no OFA clearances. I think part of the reason this dog was never tested, was that the dam of this dog, Denzil's Golden Oh Maya, was bred with hip dysplasia. On top of that, the sire, Denzil's Loveshack Ryder, also produced dogs with hip dysplasia.

I am so so happy for you. I am happy you have healthy wonderful dogs. That does not take away from the fact that I found this information from the breeder's own website. This is readily accessible. Not only do we know that some of the dogs are not fully health tested, until you or the breeder proves otherwise. But that this breeder has bred dogs without testing that come from actual dysplastic dogs.

Thank you for bringing that up as I’m sure it is an innocent error and I will let them know! I’ve personally found a lot of breeders websites are really hard to navigate, so any way we can help any of them improve is great!
I actually know they no longer have Fisher. Even though Fishers hips were rated as excellent through Penn Hip and OFA they decided to no longer breed him. I know this because I was in the market when they still had him, and I was interested in one of his puppies, but he was no longer siering (I think I just made that word up lol)
Thank you for being happy for me as I truly love my girls more than anyone could imagine! They are truly my children, as I likely can’t have any human ones. I’ve spoken to the breeder recently about all this and she has assured me all the updated data was sent in to OFA in late February, but because of Covid-19 they aren’t processing anything right now. Hopefully according to all of your standards they are trying to “do better” by reporting more regularly and this will ease your minds that they have always had the health tests done, just haven’t been the greatest at reporting still don’t think it’s grounds to deem them “unethical”

 

[LJack]

I do not, nor do I care to know.
As I previously stated I don’t care about this OFA organization. His heart was evaluated and deemed normal from a cardiologist at UW, and that is more than enough for me. I’m sure they likely have the OFA form you’re requesting, I just never cared to ask for that much detail. Are you saying a cardiologist doesn’t know how to do their job?

What I am saying is I have never seen a breeder try to present this type of documentation as “clearance”

I am used to this if it is not up on OFA.

As you can see the form is much more detailed. I includes the dogs registration name, registration number, the scanned and confirmed microchip number. It is more thorough and it is very clear that the result is normal.

I have no idea on that form you provided and I did not want to assume so I asked. You may have contacted the Cardioligist and asked for clarification on the “Soft ejection sound noted over the carotid artery” notation. I have no idea what that means. If the exam was on the OFA form, we would know. As it sits I don’t know. Also, was this Cardiologist evaluating with this being a breeding dog in mind? I don’t know. Again if it was on the OFA form we would know.

 

[LJack]

By the way though OFA is affected by COVID and processing slower, they are still doing pretty good. I sent an eye exam in the 18th of April and it was up as of Friday the first of May.