[Goldenretrievermama0217]

Well, they can tell she's not really bearing weight on it when standing still, but she walks quite normally (after the 20 seconds from resting). She does sit with her leg out sometimes..but prefers to lie down!

I think a lot of people would ignore the 20 second limp and do nothing until things got worse. But the vet got it when I showed the videos, she really looks in pain then. And 5 weeks later there's no improvement.

Of course it would be wonderful if it’s not a torn acl but the fact you caught it early and if it turns out to be and she’s only 2.5 it will be much better for her in the long run.

did your vet put her on any medication? I know our vet at the time before we went to the guy who did the surgery he put him on gabapentin and carprofen and told us to try shorter walks but we did that and no improvement. I think it started around the begging of May and at the end of June we had the surgery done. I had tried for two weeks to get him into our normal vet and they didn’t seem to care he couldn’t hardly walk. i was never a huge fan of his general veterinary but it worked and they offered a cast member (Disney employee discount so it worked out) but after his surgery we found the rehab center and they also did general vet care as well so she was out vet now and gower loved her so much as he spent 3 hours with her each week for 13 weeks and then every 4 weeks she’d spend an hour doing a recheck with him. She is incredible. Sadly we found out during our last recheck she is moving to a new practice that solely is rehabilitation that is an hour away and will no longer be doing general vet work, I’ll still take gower out there for his rechecks as he gets older as we did discover through all this he has arthritis that is why we still to this day have a daily exercises we do.We will miss her being 10 minutes from the house and our general vet. So now I’m on the lookout for a new vet 😔

 

[Neili]

That's one thing less to worry about then! I've attached (I think) the fact sheet from the specialist centre nearby (the one we're not using because the waiting list is too long). They sound so much more relaxed! I'm hoping to strike a balance between their laid back approach and wrapping her in cotton wool for 4 months!

 

[Neili]

Just saw your reply about painkillers etc (sorry!). Yes, she has been on Gabapentin and short walks, and we saw improvement. But, as soon as I slightly lengthened the walks and let her gently off lead in the garden, then the limping would start again. Yeah, totally understand why you'd continue to use a favourite vet, rehab centre, etc. We have (had) a dog walker once a week, we don't really need one now as I work from home but Eva absolutely adores her and playing with her group of friends... there was no way I could cancel it! Sadly, I've had to now, but hope to return eventually!

 

[sevans]

Our senior Golden had TPLO surgery three years ago (all went well). However- I am concerned that it has taken you so long to get a definitive diagnosis. It took our vet 5 minutes to determine it was a partial tear. An x-ray isn’t going to show much- we were immediately sent to a specialist surgeon who did an ultra sound. VERY glad we went with a specialist as surgery is the tip of the iceberg. The detailed recovery and rehab process is critical to a full recovery. Our dog was in a small xpen for four weeks- Fentanyl patch for the first 24 hours, then medicam as needed- only out to pee and poop with the sling. He had laser therapy and physiotherapy during this time and we did physio at home twice a day. At five weeks, he started hydro therapy once a week in addition to the physio. At 8 weeks- short walks with the sling and post op x-rays. No stairs running or jumping for four months. Today, you can’t even see a scar- amazing. As for having a GP vet do it- would not be my choice.

 

[Neili]

hi Sevans, I’m also concerned it’s taking so long to get a definite diagnosis. The vet who I like and did the original examination and X-rays has ruled out anything else and the specialist centre doesn’t have a availability until 6th June. He’s therefore recommending the local (well he covers a wide area and a large hospital in North London) canine orthopaedic specialist and does TPLOs almost daily. So, I don’t have an issue with that and he’ll perform this at our local surgery/hospital only 2 miles away. But I’m worried that Eva’s symptoms are so slight that it may not be a clear diagnosis and worse case a TPLO is performed and that wasn’t the issue. But that’s me…always looking for the worse case!
The veterinary team are good here, I’m sure we’ll get lots of good advice and support from them…..plus I have this forum!

 

[Neili]

I forgot to mention the original X-rays (which I have and can post here if anyone’s interested!) do show slight swelling in her knee. I can see something different between her left and right knee, I’d had to take the vet’s word that it’s swelling!

 

[sevans]

That's one thing less to worry about then! I've attached (I think) the fact sheet from the specialist centre nearby (the one we're not using because the waiting list is too long). They sound so much more relaxed! I'm hoping to strike a balance between their laid back approach and wrapping her in cotton wool for 4 months!

I would go the cotton wool approach- the rehab is critical- and the sheet from your specialist looks pretty general and not nearly as restrictive as what the three specialists we consulted with all concurred upon. There is also no mention of physiotherapy which is required daily- they can show you how to do it yourself- though we elected to do it at home and to work with the DVM physio. We also used laser and hydro therapies- we were fortunate to be able to assume these costs and realize that not everyone may be able to do so- but physio is a must do.

 

[sevans]

hi Sevans, I’m also concerned it’s taking so long to get a definite diagnosis. The vet who I like and did the original examination and X-rays has ruled out anything else and the specialist centre doesn’t have a availability until 6th June. He’s therefore recommending the local (well he covers a wide area and a large hospital in North London) canine orthopaedic specialist and does TPLOs almost daily. So, I don’t have an issue with that and he’ll perform this at our local surgery/hospital only 2 miles away. But I’m worried that Eva’s symptoms are so slight that it may not be a clear diagnosis and worse case a TPLO is performed and that wasn’t the issue. But that’s me…always looking for the worse case!
The veterinary team are good here, I’m sure we’ll get lots of good advice and support from them…..plus I have this forum!

If it’s not torn, they will be able to see that whe they operate- however, an MRI would give you a definitive diagnosis. Best wishes with this.The good news is that with correct rehab and a good surgeon- your dog will recover fully.

 

[lfisher818]

I know several people with dogs that have had TPLO surgery. A couple dogs I train with frequently had it at about 3 years and you would never guess it if you saw them running today.
Follow your vets advice and have a plan in place for the rehab.

Same here. My GSD has had both done one year apart, and he is stronger than ever! Best decision I made. Thank goodness for pet insurance!

 

[goldens9]

Skip the painful tplo and tta surgery. Many do have bad side effects and the vets will not tell you as they want to sell the surgery.
Skip the surgeon. No need for any surgeon. We know first hand with our Golden, and have several friends that also skipped the painful knee surgery for their dogs.
The most effective alternative is a custom dog knee brace. We went with the posh dog knee brace and from the time the custom posh dog knee brace was fitted, we were able to walk our golden for shorts walks on day one, in a week there was improvement and longer dog walks. Our golden had a fully torn acl ccl knee and fully recovered wearing the posh dog knee brace. Without the painful tplo tta knee surgery. No risk of side effects. It was the best decision we made and saved our golden from very painful knee surgery. We did have pet insurance that paid for 90% of the brace. We could have bought the surgery too since we had pet insurance but we wanted to make the best decision for our Golden to avoid a very painful knee surgery.
The vet was not happy that it worked so well, as the vet was desperate to sell the painful knee surgery for $5500 and knowing the surgery would displace the knee ever slightly, as surgery can never put the knee exactly in place like nature, so the risk of the other knee tearing was very high, so the vet planned on making $10,000+ for two surgeries.
So there are the very effective recovery with a posh brace.

 

[sevans]

Skip the painful tplo and tta surgery. Many do have bad side effects and the vets will not tell you as they want to sell the surgery.
Skip the surgeon. No need for any surgeon. We know first hand with our Golden, and have several friends that also skipped the painful knee surgery for their dogs.
The most effective alternative is a custom dog knee brace. We went with the posh dog knee brace and from the time the custom posh dog knee brace was fitted, we were able to walk our golden for shorts walks on day one, in a week there was improvement and longer dog walks. Our golden had a fully torn acl ccl knee and fully recovered wearing the posh dog knee brace. Without the painful tplo tta knee surgery. No risk of side effects. It was the best decision we made and saved our golden from very painful knee surgery. We did have pet insurance that paid for 90% of the brace. We could have bought the surgery too since we had pet insurance but we wanted to make the best decision for our Golden to avoid a very painful knee surgery.
The vet was not happy that it worked so well, as the vet was desperate to sell the painful knee surgery for $5500 and knowing the surgery would displace the knee ever slightly, as surgery can never put the knee exactly in place like nature, so the risk of the other knee tearing was very high, so the vet planned on making $10,000+ for two surgeries.
So there are the very effective recovery with a posh brace.

You paint a very opportunistic portrait of board certified surgeons. Yes, a dog can ”recover” from a torn cruciate without surgery but it is NOT repaired. Your dog will face the long term effects of your choice when the inevitable arthritis sets in much sooner than need be. Further- that joint will nver be stable because the ligament has not been replaced with structural support. Did you consider that instead of assuming that your surgeon was not working in the best interest of your dog- that the company that promotes the inexpensive knee brace lured you away from science to sell you their product? A German Short Haired Pointer two doors up from us blew her cruciate a few weeks before our Golden. They opted to “give it time” and used a brace. The dog was on three legs for nearly a year, had a permanent limp, and refused to swim (used to swim literally every day in warm weather). She is now on daily NSAID and is 6 years old.

 

[lfisher818]

Skip the painful tplo and tta surgery. Many do have bad side effects and the vets will not tell you as they want to sell the surgery.
Skip the surgeon. No need for any surgeon. We know first hand with our Golden, and have several friends that also skipped the painful knee surgery for their dogs.
The most effective alternative is a custom dog knee brace. We went with the posh dog knee brace and from the time the custom posh dog knee brace was fitted, we were able to walk our golden for shorts walks on day one, in a week there was improvement and longer dog walks. Our golden had a fully torn acl ccl knee and fully recovered wearing the posh dog knee brace. Without the painful tplo tta knee surgery. No risk of side effects. It was the best decision we made and saved our golden from very painful knee surgery. We did have pet insurance that paid for 90% of the brace. We could have bought the surgery too since we had pet insurance but we wanted to make the best decision for our Golden to avoid a very painful knee surgery.
The vet was not happy that it worked so well, as the vet was desperate to sell the painful knee surgery for $5500 and knowing the surgery would displace the knee ever slightly, as surgery can never put the knee exactly in place like nature, so the risk of the other knee tearing was very high, so the vet planned on making $10,000+ for two surgeries.
So there are the very effective recovery with a posh brace.

I respectably disagree with you on this, because every dog is different. We tried the conservative approach first, and it made the injury worse. The x-ray showed clearly what we already knew. The total recovery time wasn't very long. Yes, the first surgery was painful, but after he tore the other a year later; that surgery was easy and he recovered very quickly. He is a healthier, stronger dog than he was before.

 

[SRW]

Our golden had a fully torn acl ccl knee and fully recovered wearing the posh dog knee brace.

Wrong
Torn ACL/CCL don’t heal in dogs, people or anything else. That’s a fact look it up. If your dog or any other dog you know of “healed” after using a brace they never had a tear in the first place.

 

[Neili]

2 weeks and 1 day to go until our TPLO. Thanks for all the thoughts, good to hear and I know everyone's circumstances are different, which of course effect their decision. In my circumstances, our vet originally referred us to a specialist orthopaedic centre for the op, for which they wouldn't be paid (possibly they'd get a referral fee) but the waiting list was too long so we explored other options. Another vet in the practice suggested the specialist who reviewed Eva's x-rays. He's not based at our local vet, he's the group's orthopaedic specialist, very senior and he's based at a hospital in London but will visit here to perform the op, which he does "all the time". The vet also said that MRI/ultrasound now would be too expensive and unnecessary risk (another anaesthetic).
So I'm comfortable it's not about the money.
I'm also comfortable that TPLO is the way to go. Eva's a young dog and my best friend, and I want the best for her. ( She must know I wrote that, she's just come over and is trying the nudge the phone from hand so she can get cuddles!) ...we'll get through this together.
Btw, we're being very careful with exercise at the moment. 20 min lead walks only and lead on in the garden is until she's calm (otherwise, as soon as I let her out, she loves to charge around checking for squirrels). And so her limp is not noticeable but I can tell she's not putting any weight on this hind leg. When she's standing still I can lift this paw just by touching it with my finger. Her right leg is firmly planted and, although I only did this once, if I left that right leg she nearly fell over...her left hind leg just can't take the weight. She also limps after resting until she's had a stretch or walked 5 steps. It's been like this for 5 or 6 weeks now.

 

[goldens9]

I went to 3 vets all confirmed my Golden had a fully torn acl ccl.
Yes my Golden fully recovered wearing a custom posh dog knee brace.
No arthritis as we used a whole range of natural joint supplements, and switched to a mostly raw diet and numerous natural supplements.
Arthritis is much worse in dogs that get the surgery as the surgical invasion causes more damage to the joint.
I was in the health care field for awhile so I learned the dangers of allopathic medicine and not to automatically believe what a surgeon or doctor may tell you as they are always more interested in their income and commission, then in what is best for the patient, whether human or pet.
Health care professionals have to sell whatever the doctor orders even if it is not in the best interest of the patient, human or pet, as
money is the bottom line in allopathic, all is profit, medicine that we have today. Study true health history then you can learn the truth.
We did our research and did what was the best for our Golden and we had pet insurance that paid 90% of the veterinary bill whether we bought the very painful knee surgery with severe side effects or a dog knee brace with no bad side effects.
The pet insurance paid 90% of the dog knee brace as the pet insurance knows that many many dogs have fully recovered from a fully torn acl ccl knee joint tear wearing a proven custom fit dog knee brace, otherwise
the pet insurance never would have paid for the custom acl ccl posh dog knee brace.
Please be open minded to learning that there are more then one way to treat any injury or illness.
I know these days it is very hard to research true health as everything is based on what makes the highest profits, pays the highest commissions, regardless of what is best for the patient, human or animal. Money is the bottom line in health care today for both pets and humans.
We started learning many years ago, so yes we are more informed then most about pet health care and human health care.
Don't be mad if someone uses a better solution then you, as you may not be aware of the better alternative solutions or your doctor or surgeon did not tell you as they didn't want you to know.
Good luck and hope your golden recovers with no pain and no bad side effects.

 

[sevans]

I went to 3 vets all confirmed my Golden had a fully torn acl ccl.
Yes my Golden fully recovered wearing a custom posh dog knee brace.
No arthritis as we used a whole range of natural joint supplements, and switched to a mostly raw diet and numerous natural supplements.
Arthritis is much worse in dogs that get the surgery as the surgical invasion causes more damage to the joint.
I was in the health care field for awhile so I learned the dangers of allopathic medicine and not to automatically believe what a surgeon or doctor may tell you as they are always more interested in their income and commission, then in what is best for the patient, whether human or pet.
Health care professionals have to sell whatever the doctor orders even if it is not in the best interest of the patient, human or pet, as
money is the bottom line in allopathic, all is profit, medicine that we have today. Study true health history then you can learn the truth.
We did our research and did what was the best for our Golden and we had pet insurance that paid 90% of the veterinary bill whether we bought the very painful knee surgery with severe side effects or a dog knee brace with no bad side effects.
The pet insurance paid 90% of the dog knee brace as the pet insurance knows that many many dogs have fully recovered from a fully torn acl ccl knee joint tear wearing a proven custom fit dog knee brace, otherwise
the pet insurance never would have paid for the custom acl ccl posh dog knee brace.
Please be open minded to learning that there are more then one way to treat any injury or illness.
I know these days it is very hard to research true health as everything is based on what makes the highest profits, pays the highest commissions, regardless of what is best for the patient, human or animal. Money is the bottom line in health care today for both pets and humans.
We started learning many years ago, so yes we are more informed then most about pet health care and human health care.
Don't be mad if someone uses a better solution then you, as you may not be aware of the better alternative solutions or your doctor or surgeon did not tell you as they didn't want you to know.
Good luck and hope your golden recovers with no pain and no bad side effects.

I completely disagree with you. While neutraceuticals can certainly support science -based veterinary care, they do not relpace it. Your dog has not “recovered” as the ligament is severed and there is no structure replacing it. IF you understood the physiology of the injury- you wouldn’t be so susceptible able to homeopathic hocus-pocus. Please show me the peer reviewed, unbiased academic articles that support your claim that the OCD caused by TPLO surgery is greater than igoring the injury and supporting it with a brace. Your condemnation of veterinary surgeons as money grasping profiteers is appallingly misguided. These people dedicate their lives to the well being of animals and I have worked alongside some of the best. As for your “the pet insurance knows that many many dogs have fully recovered from a fully torn acl ccl knee joint tear wearing a proven custom fit dog knee brace” that is poppycock. Your insurance company was no doubt thrilled that they only had to pay out for a brace instead of the surgery. I would also like to see your clinical, unbiased evidence that dogs with torn cruciate ligaments have “fully recovered” without surgery.

 

[Neili]

I dropped Eva off at the vet's this morning and she's having surgery as I type. They're going to keep her in for the night, which they say is normal as she'll have an epidural which means less anaesthetic but they like to keep her there until all the effects wear off. Anxious times right now as I wait for the phone call once it's all done.
We went through the recuperation, which sounds very familiar to what I've read, mainly no walks except garden visits for two weeks and definitely no jumping or stairs until x-rays are done in 6 to 8 weeks. The pen is set up and I've been getting her used to sitting in there while I'm somewhere else in the house. She's one for normally following me around or at least making sure I can't get anywhere without her knowing about it! I'll share more here later when I get the facts sheet and everything has sunk in. Right now I'm pleased that we're doing something and looking forward to 3 months time when hopefully we'll be back to near normal, but I'm absolutely dreading tomorrow and seeing what's been done to her.

 

[sevans]

I dropped Eva off at the vet's this morning and she's having surgery as I type. They're going to keep her in for the night, which they say is normal as she'll have an epidural which means less anaesthetic but they like to keep her there until all the effects wear off. Anxious times right now as I wait for the phone call once it's all done.
We went through the recuperation, which sounds very familiar to what I've read, mainly no walks except garden visits for two weeks and definitely no jumping or stairs until x-rays are done in 6 to 8 weeks. The pen is set up and I've been getting her used to sitting in there while I'm somewhere else in the house. She's one for normally following me around or at least making sure I can't get anywhere without her knowing about it! I'll share more here later when I get the facts sheet and everything has sunk in. Right now I'm pleased that we're doing something and looking forward to 3 months time when hopefully we'll be back to near normal, but I'm absolutely dreading tomorrow and seeing what's been done to her.

The recovery period is challenging - especially since after the first few days- she is going to want to do much more than she is allowed to and micro managing a pent up pup to allow healing is, I think, harder on us than it is on them. I know with James, that after about a week and a half- I could barely see a limp and he was clearly confused by why he wasn’t being allowed to do his normal things- but that restricted movement is SO important. Thinking of you- keep us posted!

 

[Neili]

Well....

I got a call from the surgeon. He told me that when Eva was mildly sedated she wasn't reacting to any knee manipulation but really did when he applied pressure around her ankle. (She'd previously yelped when he pushed her knee during consultation so CCL seemed very likely.)

So, he cancelled the surgery as he wasn't convinced, in fact he's pretty much rulled out, a CCL injury.

I guess that proves how honest the vet surgery is, but we're a bit lost as to what the issue is. X-ray of her ankle don't show anything unusual, so we're back to think soft tissue or something the x-ray hasn't shown.

He's booking her in for a CT scan and the opinion of an orthopedic specialist at a centre nearby.

In the meantime it's short lead walks and we're going to try the anti inflammatory pain killers again in a few days (can't remember the name now). We stopped taking them originally because they appeared to cause diarrhea, but he wondered if that was a reaction to the anaesthetic. So, we'll wait a few days for the anaesthetic to be out of the system (and any associated diarrhea) and try again.

After speaking to the specialist he may also suggest a bandage to restrict ankle movement.

She's also got a shaved leg since they did that in pre-op. Oh well, now we're both bald!

 

[sevans]

Well....

I got a call from the surgeon. He told me that when Eva was mildly sedated she wasn't reacting to any knee manipulation but really did when he applied pressure around her ankle. (She'd previously yelped when he pushed her knee during consultation so CCL seemed very likely.)

So, he cancelled the surgery as he wasn't convinced, in fact he's pretty much rulled out, a CCL injury.

I guess that proves how honest the vet surgery is, but we're a bit lost as to what the issue is. X-ray of her ankle don't show anything unusual, so we're back to think soft tissue or something the x-ray hasn't shown.

He's booking her in for a CT scan and the opinion of an orthopedic specialist at a centre nearby.

In the meantime it's short lead walks and we're going to try the anti inflammatory pain killers again in a few days (can't remember the name now). We stopped taking them originally because they appeared to cause diarrhea, but he wondered if that was a reaction to the anaesthetic. So, we'll wait a few days for the anaesthetic to be out of the system (and any associated diarrhea) and try again.

After speaking to the specialist he may also suggest a bandage to restrict ankle movement.

She's also got a shaved leg since they did that in pre-op. Oh well, now we're both bald!

It seemed odd to me earlier that they had not done an MRI or CT as a diagnostic tool- although there is a very specific movement of the joint that should NOT happen if the cruciate ligament is compromised. So much for the person who was veterinary surgeon $$$ bashing. Puzzling and frustrating but a wise surgeon to check first.