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Discussion Starter #1
What do you think of this pairing? We were able to meet this breeder, she's wonderful & knowledgeable. She's being mentored by another breeder in the area from the GR Club. I'm hoping to get a puppy from her future litter. :) The dogs we met were beautiful, friendly, smart, and healthy.

It may or may not be this pairing, I don't think anything has been set in stone.

SIRE:
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=313612
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1344056#animal

DAM (not sure if it will be her, depends on clearances):
Went RWB at 2009 National
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=354309
 

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bumping up
 

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In the Moment
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I hope some of our breeders give their opinions..... esp about the COI.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I hope some of our breeders give their opinions..... esp about the COI.
Yes, the COI is pretty high and I'd love for the other breeders to share their thoughts.

I'd like to know more about COI in general. Even with a B.S. in Biology, it gets a little hairy to understand all that goes into selecting a pairing. Anyone have other links to a simplistic explanation of COI?
 

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In the Moment
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bumping up. I'd love to eavesdrop on a discussion of COI with some of our breeders..........
 

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I shoot, they fetch.
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We'd need a link to the test breeding in k9data to get the COI of the pairing, rather than the individuals. While both have a fairly high number, there are not a lot of dogs in common between them in the first few generations.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
We'd need a link to the test breeding in k9data to get the COI of the pairing, rather than the individuals. While both have a fairly high number, there are not a lot of dogs in common between them in the first few generations.
I'll see if I can figure out how to do that....:crossfing

Ok- Here it is: http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=360904

It says COI is not available at this time and to check back. Also, will this show up if someone searches for it? I've never used this feature before.
 

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I shoot, they fetch.
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It will take a couple of weeks for the COI to show up. They are run in batches periodically. There are other ways of determining that COI but it is very math intensive!

Here are some sites which discuss COIs
http://www.isogenic.info/html/inbreeding___it_s_effects.html
http://www.leonberger-database.com/explanation%20COI.htm


Some breeders firmly believe in using breedings that produce a low COI as a way of avoiding hereditary disease while others firmly believe in tight linebreeding, and in being ruthless in removing affected/carrier individuals from the breeding population as a way of fighting those diseases. There isn't really a consensus on it yet. That said, if one is going to linebreed, one had better be pretty well-versed in the traits those dogs carry...Look up the Elhew pointers if you want to read about an intensively bred line of dogs. He got incredible results but it also required extreme discipline.
 

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SunKissed Goldens
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Aww, Evergreen's Mountain Sunset is in there - one of my favorite dogs.
I like the Dam's pedigree very much!
 

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I like the Dam's pedigree too, I have a bitch out of Evergreen's Mountain Sunset, and Lily and Ryder are awesome! I would not be worried about these COI's btw.
 

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The COI is a Co-efficient of inbreeding. Basically in 10 or 12 generations it tells you how many times a dog is showing up in the pedigree. If a dog or dogs is/are showing up in a pedigree a lot of times in the 10 or 12 generations, the co-efficient of inbreeding will be higher, if you don't have them showing up multiple times, the co-efficients will be lower. This is just one tool for breeding and you can always ask the breeder what their goal is for the breeding and what they are hoping to accomplish with the breeding and why they are chosing this pairing.

When breeding a girl, there are lots of things to consider and a COI is just one of them. :)
 

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I miss you Macintosh
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Ok so I'll admit I'm a novice at reading clearances but is the "fair" rating on the hips a concern? What about the cataracts? Do his awards overshadow these ratings?

Again I'm still learning this stuff so please forgive my ignorance if I am misinterpreting these things.
 

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These are very good and legitimate questions :) No, the Fair hips are not a concern in and of themselves. Fair still means no signs of DJD (degenerative joint disease). Whether the hips are Excellent, Good or Fair, I still look at the history around them-sire, dam, full and half siblings.

The cataracts are a breeder's option and the sire was still given a CERF number, meaning that at this time, they are not felt to be inherited. I would not want to double up on them by any means if I were to use a dog with them, and would want to check the CERF history as well.

Breeding is not a "one size fits all" exercise. If the dog had the pedigree I wanted, conformationally was a good match for my bitch and had the temperament I was looking for, I would have no problem using him. If however he wasn't the "perfect" match I was looking for, that plus the cataract might be enough for me to look elsewhere.
 

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Griff's a Muffin Thief!
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I've heard of Gambler before but not the Dam. If it feels right, go for it.
Have you met either of the parents? I think that means so much.

I was lucky enough to meet both of Griff's parents. I should have known.. he has his mother's personality. (It's all about ME!) :doh:
 

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As far as the Fair hips goes.......Fair is still a passing OFA. You can't get totally caught up in the rating of FAIR, GOOD, or EXCELLENT as they are all passing and none of them are showing signs of degenerative joint disease according to the OFA. There is not a huge difference between a OFA fair and an OFA excellent as many people may think. This is genetics and not fool proof and we are using a genotype instead of a DNA marker or an exact science. What is more important is to look around the pedigree-look to see if the sire and dam and grandparents have clearances and see what those ratings are-if they are all fair, then maybe the pedigree is a little weaker in the hip department and so that can be questionable. However, it rarely happens that easy.:)

The same would hold true for the cataracts. He is on the young side for cataracts even of an unknown significance to be showing up, as it is more common to see them in older dogs and those are more related to them aging. Our one male has a cataract in one eye that was from an injury but it still has to be noted on his CERF form. It can actually be helpful to go the to CERF website to check to see if the dog had previous exams and if those were clear. Plus, there is always the option of asking about the actual CERF exam bubble form to see any notations that were written there from the opthomologist. Not every breeder sends in every CERF form every year, especially if the dog or dogs aren't being bred that year but they do keep the copies of the CERF bubble forms.
 
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