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Discussion Starter #1
So I think I found a really great breeder, and the bonus is that she lives very close to me. I'm going to visit next week, and if all is as good as it sounds, I'm going to put a deposit down on a puppy from these two parents. Both have all their certs (and BOTH are excellent on hips :D). They won't be bred until early next spring, puppies hopefully due in May-ish. This will be my first Golden, though, and I want to make sure everything is as good as it sounds....

I also have no clue about Golden pedigrees, can anyone give any input on these lines? Any other info also welcome:

Sire: http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=213822
Dam: http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=213823

Thanks!
Caitlin
 

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I don't know much about pedigrees, but both parents have excellent hips, which isn't something I have seen often. That's great! Not that good isn't a good thing, but two excellents is really great. I hope someone else weighs in.
 

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Chantilly Goldens
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It worries me that they advertise "puppies ready for X-mas". I hate that! That's is very unreputable IMO. They are also breeding 3 litters at once, a little excessive. Also, the references to the bible I don't like that at all. Also, it does not appear they do anything (conformation, obedience etc.) with their dogs. The websites stars and bells nearly gave me a seizure but that’s neither here or there. They do all their clearances so I give them that. I would say there are probably better places to get a puppy. But again atleast they do proper clearances but just like any breeder be sure to confirm should you go ahead.
 

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While I don't like their seizure-inducing site, it's hardly a strike against the dogs.

The certifications appear to be there, though I'd double check them on offa.org, not just k9data. I hate to assume the worst of people, but so many unethical breeders are fudging certifications these days that you just have to be religious in checking up.

Three litters on the ground at once is a lot, so I'd be asking very serious questions about how they're being handled, pre-trained, evaluated and socialized. One litter at a time is a huge handful for one or two people, so unless they have a staff or a large family, I'm not sure how they'd do justice to three litters of puppies at once.

Also, and perhaps this isn't as much of a concern for some, it's very important to me that a breeder is involved in conformation or dogsport. I really like to see a Ch, CD, UD, WC, JH, AX, etc. (ideally one of the more advanced versions of those titles) on the parents, not just back in the pedigree. The Golden spirit was developed as breeders sought to produce working dogs and dogs that fit a beautiful physical standard; I like to support a breeder who continues that work, and I really like the kinds of dogs that come out of a working program.
 

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Where The Bitches Rule
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After looking at their website and checking the clearances on the sire and dam a couple things come to mind.
The good I see is that they do appear to do clearances and they are in the OFA database for the sire and dam you listed.
Both sire and dam have nice ppedigrees with some very lovely dogs behind them.
Now for the maybe not so good.
First both sire and dam have only had their eye exam submitted once to CERF. That was two years ago. Eyes need to be done every year. Now if they have done them each year and not sent them in that is ok but not the best thing. They should have a copy of the exam for you to see even if they did not submit it and it should not be from their regular vet but a specialist. It only costs $7.50 to resubmit them to CERF after the intial submission. With the amount of breeding and pups they are producing that is a very small price to pay IMO.
I also have a serious problem with advertising three litters in time for Christmas. again IMO a reputable breeder is more concerned with each and every home one of their pups go to. And Christmas is the WORST time for pupps to go to there new homes. Lots of impulse buying, hectic households, and wrong reasons to go to their new home.
They also do not appear to be involved in any venue other than breeding with their dogs. So they are not proving or testing in anyway what they are producing. While this might be okay for someone who breedes once every couple of years with the amount of breeding they are doing I feel should be doing this. Breeding should always be done to improve hte breed not just produce pups and maintain the status quo. From where I sit to me it appears they are in it for nothing but the money. But you definitely could go to places MUUCH woorse than this for your pup.

Good Luck in whatever you decide is best for you and your family!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for the replies so far, they're about what I expected. Not a big fan of the website either. But so far, corresponding with her by email, she comes off more professionally than what's on there. I was also hesitant about all of the litters at Christmas, but from what she says, she has almost filled waiting lists for all of them, and rarely if ever has a puppy available after the litters are born. So it doesn't seem that she's breeding for Xmas impulse buyers.

Good points about not doing anything with them but breeding and no new eye exams. I will ask about this at my visit. It does seem that some of the puppies she's bred have gone on to do things though (obedience and some police dog work?).

Caitlin
 

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Faux Wanda
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One more question that you might want to ask when you go for a visit is how old the pups are when she lets them go. If it is younger than 8 weeks I would reconsider. If she lets them go at 6 weeks it would explain how they are able to have 3 litters at a time. The last 2 weeks are when the hard work starts. Up until 6 weeks the pups mom does the most work. IMO it is very important for pups to stay with mom and littermates for at least 8 weeks.
 

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I know nothing about them, but their website in rather annoying.

After breeding just one litter - the worry I had, the work I did - I cannot physically nor emotionally imagine having 3 at one time. As I made sure I held each of those puppies several times a day, to give them the best socialization i could - I just can't see it.

Hard for me to imagine listing my girls as "retiring" -- sounds like their only job is producing puppies. I would be interested to see just how often the bitches were bred. Bless those bitches and hopefully "retirement" will be good for them. They seem to have a lot of girls and new upcoming ones.

I just can not ever understand why people breed so many dogs. If I had people wanting more puppies - I would refer them to other breeders rather than bring yet another litter into this world. That reasoning just makes my skin crawl - breeding again because someone wants another puppy.

Breeding to improve the breed is one thing - breeding and breeding and breeding is another.

Just my opinion. I hope you make the right decision for you. Only you know what is right for you!
 

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One thing to keep in mind about our idea of a "perfect" breeder is that often times supply does not fill the demand. I don't know much about people in conformation, but I do know that in performance breeders, most of the puppies go to homes that will do performance events with them. Maybe one or two dogs per litter are going to pet homes. Some breeders have waiting lists years long for a pet puppy from them. While I do think people should be willing to wait up to a point, I don't think it is fair to expect them to wait an indefinite number of years to be able to get a dog.So what I am saying is that while it would be wonderful to say that all breeders should show or work their dog in some venue, it is not possible for all the people out there who want a pet to be able to get one from one of those breeders.I am in no way saying I condone puppy mills. I do think all breeders should meet minimum standards with certifications, not breeding more litters than they can do justice to (and that will vary from breeder to breeder), and only breeding dogs with proper temperment.When I was looking for my puppy, I was looking for something I could reach the highest levels of obedience with. I don't just want to get an OTCH, I want a nationally ranked dog that can go to the Invitationals. Yet the breeder I used has not shown in over twenty years, neither of the parents have any titles (except for one having its CCA), and the breeder had three different litters over that summer. But I did meet the parents, have met other dogs from the lines, and I did a lot of talking with the breeder about what I was looking for. What it came down to was could I trust this breeder or not.
 

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I don't know anything about these dogs, but I will now use the link to the Off-spring and check the DOB of the Sire and Dam along with everything else. Not that all of the off-spring are entered, but it's something I will surely look for from now on.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thank you everyone for the continued input, I will keep everything in mind and I've added more questions to my list for next week.

I will say, though, that I'm not looking for the next Westminster champion...I just want a sane, healthy, happy Golden for a family companion and to possibly do a little obedience with. So far, I think this breeder and these parents will provide that. Obviously I'll know more after an in-person visit, and will have a very open mind (and many questions to ask :)) when I'm there.

Caitlin
 

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So I took a look at the offspring of the dam, Ke-Li's You'Re So Vain. There is a pup listed as being born 7/4/2009?? And she's having another litter in time for Christmas? That doesn't sound right.

http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=350837

 

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Discussion Starter #14
She's not one having an Xmas litter, she will tenatively be bred in spring 2010. The breeder has three litters out of other mothers due around Xmas.

Caitlin
 

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Chantilly Goldens
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So I took a look at the offspring of the dam, Ke-Li's You'Re So Vain. There is a pup listed as being born 7/4/2009?? And she's having another litter in time for Christmas? That doesn't sound right.

http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=350837
I didn't look any further then what I posted but good for you for catching that! Your right thats another red flag. Breeders will breed back to back but not often and not more then once!
 

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She's not one having an Xmas litter, she will tenatively be bred in spring 2010. The breeder has three litters out of other mothers due around Xmas.

Caitlin
I see. I thought you were posting links to the sire and dam for the litter you were considering.
 

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Chantilly Goldens
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She's not one having an Xmas litter, she will tenatively be bred in spring 2010. The breeder has three litters out of other mothers due around Xmas.

Caitlin
That would depend on the actual date the bitch was bred. A breeding that took place on Oct 22nd could be due X-mas eve. I thought the website had said the bitches had been bred.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Carly (Ki-Li's You're so vain) is the mother of the litter I'm considering. She is not going to be bred until spring 2010 (unless something has changed drastically since I last looked at the website, her planned litter is not even listed there; I found out about it in emails from the breeder).

The three litters due around Xmas are DIFFERENT litters from DIFFERENT mothers than Carly. That is what everyone is discussing for the most part, but I do NOT want a puppy from one of these litters...in fact, I don't want one until late next spring/summer (warm weather for potty training :)). Carly may have had a litter over the summer, but she is not being bred until spring 2010. Just clarifying (what I know from the breeder).
 

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Where The Bitches Rule
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So I took a look at the offspring of the dam, Ke-Li's You'Re So Vain. There is a pup listed as being born 7/4/2009?? And she's having another litter in time for Christmas? That doesn't sound right.

http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=350837
She's not one having an Xmas litter, she will tenatively be bred in spring 2010. The breeder has three litters out of other mothers due around Xmas.

Caitlin
I didn't look any further then what I posted but good for you for catching that! Your right thats another red flag. Breeders will breed back to back but not often and not more then once!
I see. I thought you were posting links to the sire and dam for the litter you were considering.
That would depend on the actual date the bitch was bred. A breeding that took place on Oct 22nd could be due X-mas eve. I thought the website had said the bitches had been bred.

While she did post links to the parents of the planned litter she is considering a puppy from it is not one of the litters listed for Christmas. It is a spring planned litter. Nor is the pup from the litter listed under upcoming litters in 2010 at this time. From her website it appears she plans to breed Carly and another bitch (Chaney) in 2010 and then "retire" them both.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
While she did post links to the parents of the planned litter she is considering a puppy from it is not one of the litters listed for Christmas. It is a spring planned litter. Nor is the pup from the litter listed under upcoming litters in 2010 at this time. From her website it appears she plans to breed Carly and another bitch (Chaney) in 2010 and then "retire" them both.
Thank you :). I didn't want us to get too far off track. I have no interest in the Xmas litters.

Caitlin
 
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