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Kodasmomma
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Koda's stubbornness is getting worse. I am working with her on it now more than I did last time. She got better quick last time so I didn't stress but I am taking it seriously this time. The last two mornings it took me 10-15 minutes to take her out to potty and get her back inside. She doesn't want to go potty, just wants to hang out outside. So I tlel her to go potty and she lays down LOL. It is funny when I look back at it but in the moment I am so annoyed. Trying to get her up is impossible as she rolls onto her back. She thinks its all a game. So yesterday I got her inside, went and grabbed some ham and took her back out! It worked! Today my hubby offered to let her out for the last time before we left...i told him to take ham and he was too cocky and said he didn't need it. Sure enough she did it! I took ham out and made him hand her over cuz I could tell he was getting really annoyed. He doens't have the patience level I do! Now she was all wound up though so it took me longer to get her to focus on going to the bathroom...ugh.

Yesterday I took her to the park after work to get some energy out and had her on her flexi leash. We were about to head home and she parked herself. I wasn't sure if she was tired or just stubborn but if she was tired I didn't want to push it so I let her lay for a minute. Took me a little bit but I got her up since I had hot dog with me.

I just wish she would want to come with me...and not need the food. I guess that is what I have to do though...any of your dogs get this stubborn? I have to remind myself to stay calm when she does this, esp in public as it looks ridiculous that I can't get my dog to walk with me.
 

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I feel your "pain". LOL!!!! our last dog Buddy was so stubborn, specially when he went on walks as a puppy. If he didn't want to walk anymore, he would lie down on his side and not budge. It took our family (all 6 of us) I am embarrassed to say, to get him up to get home. One of our neighbours came out and asked if he had had a seizure. How embarrassing!!!!! We also use to have a special stuffed toy named Miss Kitty that we used to get him in from the backyard. I know...I know... what we do for our dogs. LOL!!!!!! I does get better.
 

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Tracer, Rumor & Cady
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It doesn't look ridiculous to anyone that has had a golden pup....and the rest don't matter ;)
 

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Apollo & Knightley's mum!
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Yeah, my Knightley does this a bit. I'm training him to be my assistance (service) dog, and I've taught him if I ever stand in one place for a while (like at a shop counter), he can go into a down and relax. We've just started some public training, and the problem then comes when he's getting a bit tired and he's very comfortable thank you very much, and I'm finished doing whatever I wanted to do and want him to get up...... well, let's just say he looks at me as if that's the stupidest idea I've ever come up with.

VERY embarrassing from what is otherwise a fairly well trained dog in public. I'm trying to train an exciting 'get up it's fun time!' cue, and that may be working..... but until then I have to grab the handle on his vest and give him a bit of a lift. Once I do he gets up of his own accord with a bit of a pull on his collar...... but seriously, he's meant to be helping me move around, not the other way around!!!! *blush* It's seriously embarrassing when it happens. **** these stubborn dogs, I swear Knightley knows exactly what he's doing to me. So..... I sympathise. At least you don't have half a shopping centre watching you when it happens!!!
 

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Us, too!

Koda's stubbornness is getting worse. I am working with her on it now more than I did last time. She got better quick last time so I didn't stress but I am taking it seriously this time. The last two mornings it took me 10-15 minutes to take her out to potty and get her back inside. She doesn't want to go potty, just wants to hang out outside. So I tlel her to go potty and she lays down LOL. It is funny when I look back at it but in the moment I am so annoyed. Trying to get her up is impossible as she rolls onto her back. She thinks its all a game. So yesterday I got her inside, went and grabbed some ham and took her back out! It worked! Today my hubby offered to let her out for the last time before we left...i told him to take ham and he was too cocky and said he didn't need it. Sure enough she did it! I took ham out and made him hand her over cuz I could tell he was getting really annoyed. He doens't have the patience level I do! Now she was all wound up though so it took me longer to get her to focus on going to the bathroom...ugh.

Yesterday I took her to the park after work to get some energy out and had her on her flexi leash. We were about to head home and she parked herself. I wasn't sure if she was tired or just stubborn but if she was tired I didn't want to push it so I let her lay for a minute. Took me a little bit but I got her up since I had hot dog with me.

I just wish she would want to come with me...and not need the food. I guess that is what I have to do though...any of your dogs get this stubborn? I have to remind myself to stay calm when she does this, esp in public as it looks ridiculous that I can't get my dog to walk with me.
That is so us right now LOL! Amber does not want to come in (who would) without a treat. Ask DH "Did you bring the treats out with you?" Oh, I forgot... :doh:. After working on this for two days, Amber will now come in on the second request for "Inside for a Treat", so I am encouraged. So so so maddening in real-time! What do you do? Chase her while she runs around the yard (no), beg (yes ;)), run around screaming at the top of my lungs (not recommended) or watch DH get mad (nope). For now, taking out a bag of high-value treats and swinging it through the air and saying "Inside for a Treat" is working. Who knows about tomorrow....she can be a real knot head. Just helps to know that you are not in this alone. :wavey:
P.S. Five coworkers at the NASA Center where I work just bought litter mates from a couple that posted on our Hall Board. I sent them all the link to this forum.
 

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Soon after we got Ben he began doing the lie down on his back and refuse to move game. I think originally it was in response to the electronic fence, which he hated, but he would also do it on walks occasionally. We started carrying a small snuff can that I found and filled with pennies. When he would lie down, I rattled the can and he leaped up. We only had to do it a couple of times.
 

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Kodasmomma
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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks guys, it is nice to know I am not alone! It is so frustrating though. I know that she knows what "come" means but she just has no interest in obeying it right now. She is 11 months old going on 1 year! I wanted her to be reliable at coming at this point. I guess I was asking too much.

I went home on lunch and not thinking forgot to bring out ham with me. :doh:. She went right outside and layed down. No hesitation in what she was going to do. I could not get her up to save my life. I dont even recall now how I did get her up. I think I had other treats in my pocket. We had a nice walk and she didn't do it at all on the walk but then when we got home she did it again in the front yard. It is only when she knows she is going to be asked to come inside. The only commands that will get her inside is "wanna get the mail" (which I can only use once a day) and "wanna go for a ride" which I dont want to take a car ride everytime I want my dog to come in! Haha.

Part of my problem is I am asking her to potty when she probably just doesn't have to go. I don't have a baby puppy that has to go 100 times a day anymore and it is hard for me to get used to that. In the morning if she pees on our walk I will probably just leave it at that and not attempt to make her potty again. Same with this afternoon. I tried taking her out to potty and she wouldn't go..probalby because she didn't have to so I brought her inside. Ugh, this stresses me out so much because we have pet sitters over and I dont want to make them deal with this behaviour.
 

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Koda's stubbornness is getting worse. I am working with her on it now more than I did last time. She got better quick last time so I didn't stress but I am taking it seriously this time. The last two mornings it took me 10-15 minutes to take her out to potty and get her back inside.

I just wish she would want to come with me...and not need the food. I guess that is what I have to do though...any of your dogs get this stubborn? I have to remind myself to stay calm when she does this, esp in public as it looks ridiculous that I can't get my dog to walk with me.
Remember...'whats in it for her?' Thats the rule. What do you want? A dog who does what you need her to or a dog that does what you need her to with extra rules and complications that can then make it a gamble each time you give that command?
Take the ham. Dogs want reward. Dont think she can think the same way as a human. She wants to know whether its worth doing what you want her to do or whether what shes doing is better in HER eyes. IF you have the ham or whatever food she LOVES then she will do what you want,..then you are happy, she is happy and theres NO stress, NO confrontation and NO issues. Watch dogs in the show ring. They arent doing what they do for nothing. The handlers have the best treats fir them..whatever that dog loves they have in their hands. Chester has fresh duck that I cut into very small pieces and cook in the oven until its dried out. I know then that when I need him to do something I have the tool to get him to do it without any hassle and just after a few times he comes running JUST IN CASE I have the duck! Sometimes its a lower value treat but he obviously doesnt want to take a chance at missing out JUST IN CASE!!! ;) Thats where you need Koda to be and where she could be with consistency and if you can move yourself away from thinking ...'without food'.
My other half and daughter were the same...they did it their way and he had no recall, fifty per cent response to commands. They have now seen his reaction to my way...and guess who is looking for pieces of duck now?!!
Good luck..you will get there..our pups can be SOOO stubborn! I wish you were here..I would swap you pups for two days..I think you would see Koda as less stubborn after you had experienced my Mr Stubborn!!! :doh: :doh: :uhoh:
 

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Kodasmomma
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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks Elly! You are right...consistency is key! I don't know if ham will be her go to treat but I will find whatever it is that she will listen to no matter what!
 

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Jige is like this only at night tho. He doesnt laydown he just wants to walk around. He has alwasy been like this and I think it is because I worked later when I got home (it was summer time) and I would take him and Miss Vendetta outside and I would sit out there for an hr or so let them play and doing some fetch. So Jige thinks that is what we should still be doing. He doesnt realize that he has a fur coat and I dont and it is cold outside. Now I take the frisbee and I toss that for him 5-6time and then he is ready to come back inside.
 

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Wyatt Earp
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Koda is a smart pup! She knows what she wants and how to get it. She has you trained well lol! Have you tried just picking her up by her collar? Our Wyatt knows he has to go outside every nite before we go to bed and when I tell him let's go, he does the same. I will reach over and grab his collar and he will give me the devil dog look. But I always follow thru and grab his collar and he gets up. In other words he has no choice.
If you can't pull her up by her collar, I bet if you go inside and close the door she will want in. Otherwise she will just wait it out until she gets what SHE wants......ham.

You can train a dog to poddy on command whether they want to or not. It all comes down to consistancy. Dogs are creatures of habit. They learn routines rather quickly.
 

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Kodasmomma
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Discussion Starter #13
I try the collar but that also gets her to roll onto her back...stinker!

Leaving her outside would probably make her happy and she would just go about eating EVERYTHING. We still go out with her every time because we dont have a closed in fence or anything. So leaving her would involve us getting her tie out leash and hooking her up...probably wouldn't be too effective.

She used to potty on command....not so much anymore.
 

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Michelle, I'm wondering if you could have the special treat for her inside the house. Once she comes in the door, she gets the treat. I read once about a mom who always gave her little kids one small M&M candy as soon as they were buckled into their car seats. She never said a word, just gave it to them. She never had trouble getting them into the car... LOL. Not sure about the candy approach with kids :D, but ya gotta do what works for ya....
 

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Logan & Lacey in R hearts
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Our rainbow bridge boy-Logan was just like that at that around 10 months of age. We were in training class one night when he pulled that stunt. He didn't want to do something so he did his usual throw himself on the ground and rollover when I reached for his collar. The instructor looked at him, looked at me and said "don't let him get away with that". I was ready to use a treat to get him up. Instead the instructor said to take a hold of his collar with both hands, one on either side of his neck, and use every bit of strength you have to haul his little sassy butt up off the ground into a sitting position. I did exactly that – with the whole class watching. It definitely was not an easy thing since he was about 65 pounds at the time, and was playing dead so that made it worse. He also gave me the "devil-dog" look that Wyatt's mom mentions, but I think he was more shocked that I actually got him up off the ground. I firmly placed him into a sitting position and told him to knock it off. We sat there for a minute and then the instructor gave me the signal to walk off with him. Though he tried it a few more times, I again hauled his butt up. After that he quit doing it. I was ready to use a treat every time to get him to behave when he did this. The instructor told me to stick to my guns and let him know throwing himself on the ground was not going to work, and to save the treats for those real emergencies. I am laughing now as I think about to those times with him – but at the time I wasn’t laughing. Good luck!
 

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Kodasmomma
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Discussion Starter #16
OMG Our3dogs...you describe her exactly. First the thump to the ground and then play dead...they literally make themselves dead weight. I am worried about class tonight for that reason. My hubby won't be there and lifting her 70 lb butt up won't be an easy feet if they ask me to do that....yikes! Glad it worked for you though...may have to go for it!
 

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the party's crashing us
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Oh geeze. I second what Wyatt's Mommy recommended --

GRAB HER COLLAR AND MAKE HER GET UP

Don't let her play dead alligator with you. You are physically stronger and smarter and trust me you can MAKE her get up and follow you. Yes, the first time she will flip over and you will have to drag her. Oh well. Next time she'll know not to play that baloney. Sorry but your dog is being very manipulative and disrespectful and getting away with murder. She does NOT know what "come" means other than "that's the word mom says when I mess around and ignore her." Or -- if I ignore her long enough -- SHE BRINGS ME HAM! WOOHOO
Time for some tough love.
 

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Kodasmomma
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Discussion Starter #18
Thanks K9-Design. I need the reality check. She is owning me and I should take more control. She is pretty sensitive and I dont want her to fear me so I always try to avoid the tough love when I can but I think it is needed in this situation as hard as it will be for me. I am such a sucker for her but this will be good for her in the long run.
 

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Apollo & Knightley's mum!
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As I mentioned before, I am training my pup to be an assistance dog for myself, and due to my physical issues, there is no way I can drag him to an upright position. So, if you don't want to have to drag your dog upright, but don't want to have to lure every time... you could try training a 'let's go!' command, (or call it something else), which is what I have started to do with Knightley. What I am doing currently, is every time Knightley happens to get up from a down during any time he's with me, I make a huge fuss and give him bunches of treats. I've been doing this for a couple of days now, and I've noticed things like recall when he is lazy or even half asleep is getting lots better because he is associating getting up with good things. It's also improving the lazy stubborn 'I don't want to move' down, which was the point.

You could just work on that hard, but I am going to take it to the next level, and will soon start practicing long downs with him, keeping him in a stay for as long as I think he can safely do without breaking (different for every dog of course), and then I will tell him the stay is over, then say "let's go!" and quickly move off, and have a party if he gets up immediately, followed by treats gallore. I'd then start practicing inside with him on a leash, then backyard without a leash, then the street with a leash..... until I have a rock solid command that means 'time to move, get to your feet now'. Once he has understood, then I would slowly stop giving treats - maybe only give treats every second time, then every third and so on. That's what I plan to do, and I'm sure it'll work well. The first part has already seen an improvement. I'd anticipate the whole training sequence will take a week or so.

It's more versatile than dragging your dog up by its collar, as sometimes you will want your dog to relax in a down and then get up and be ready to go on command. You can use stand for that I suppose, but stand is very much a posed position, not a 'get ready' command IMO. Also, there must be other people out there who can't lift anything (especially the dead weight of their dog), or just have a bad back!
 

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Kodasmomma
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Discussion Starter #20
lyssa, so you are treating him anytime you see him get up from a down even without you asking?

I like this a lot.
 
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