Golden Retriever Dog Forums banner

1 - 20 of 58 Posts

·
Abby-Molly-Sophie-Cooper
Joined
·
180 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi All,

I wanted to clarify why I got a bit snarky on the English Cream thread that went on for days.

As we've all said numerous times here, we are all entitled to our opinions. My frustration the other day rose up from yet another thread that denigrated into so many things (some responses were merited as the tone was a bit off putting). I've researched every thread that ever mentioned English Creams and it's always about the "debate" and the bad breeders and we rarely get to celebrate. Just the other day someone started a thread on red golden retrievers. It was celebratory and a chance to show off their redheads. I hope that we can do the same thing for our English babies without the thread being hijacked into something else all together.

Whether or not anyone wants to admit it, there has been comment on this forum that could easily be construed as a bias against "cream" colored goldens. It's comments like someone asking about cream colored Goldens and getting the response, 'I think you should look for a Golden Retriever that can get our dander up. Our dogs are Golden Retrievers and our dog's color is accepted worldwide because cream is an accepted color for all breed clubs except here. It's bad enough that we have beautiful dogs that can't be shown here in the states. Anyone looking to get a championship for their English has to go to Canada.

The issue appears to be that we can't talk about our English Goldens without the rain coming down about the unscrupulous breeding practices of those high volume breeders who focus solely on the rarity, color, mellowness, blah, blah, blah. And they are very valid warnings. The point I was trying to make the other day with this this thread - http://goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=50926 was an attempt to put us in the same category as all others looking for solid advice on how to choose a breeder and puppy without the rain falling. I think it chases people away from the forum. They like the lighter color, came here looking for info and are immediately involved in this long time debate. I want as many people to join and stay here as possible as it is the BEST forum online for discussion of Golden Retrievers.

It is so counter productive to get into these pissing matches about how my dog is better than your dog and I really don't think people mean to do that but if they feel unfairly attacked for their choice of Golden, passions are raised.

So my hope would be that we can celebrate all of our Goldens regardless of color and origin, continue the learning process by highlighting the differences between field dogs, conformation dogs and dogs of recent European heritage and talking about why we like one aspect in our dog and wish we had another trait from a line we're not familiar with without the
first thought as regards to English Goldens always being RUN as fast as you can.

For instance, I think it would be prudent and helpful for those seeking info to have a sticky under the "Choosing a Breeder or Choosing a Puppy banner to have a master list of the things to watch out for - It would look something like this -

Never buy a puppy from a pet store
Never buy a puppy from a BYB who sells their puppies in an ad, doesn't do clearances and lets the puppy go at 6 weeks
Never buy a puppy from a breeder that also sells GoldenDoodles
Never buy a puppy from a breeder touting Rare White Goldens, or Ivory Platinum Goldens, or English Cream Goldens as if they were a different breed

Always buy a puppy from a breeder who does all required health clearances, HIPS, ELBOWS, HEART, EYES and has at least three generations of clearances behind their dogs
Always buy a puppy from a breeder who insists on meeting you, discussing your plans for puppy and will evaluate the puppies to make the best match
Always make sure you leave the breeder with all vet history, vaccinations, parents pedigrees and AKC papers to register your dog.
Always go over every aspect of the contract with the breeder before leaving with your pup or money has exhanged hands.
Always buy a puppy from a breeder who will stand behind their dog and be a lifeline for you throughout its life.
Always buy a puppy from a breeder who cares and understands nutrition and advocates a superior diet and is aware of supplements and advises accordingly.

If we can get to the place where the warnings on English Creams are mainstreamed into the general discussion on good animal husbandry with all the other things to watch for, I think it would be great for our breed and the forum.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
50 Posts
Thank you for your post I am an owner of a 5 month old creme golden retriever. Hes such a sweetie, has the true golden retriever personality and I love him to bits. Just because hes is creme though I have heard a few rude things. But I got him off a reputable breeder with all the appropriate checks and I think that just because of his coat color he shouldnt be discriminated against. This is what someone wrote on yahoo answers after seeing a picture of him

"That is not a Golden Retriever. Goldens are gold, not white. I swear to God I hate these new "white" goldens. So ugly and so unnecessary.

Keep them Gold.
Source(s):

Proud mom to a rescued TRUE GOLDEN golden retriever"

How could someone say that about my little Leo?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,755 Posts
I personally don't think there's anything wrong if people want to have a very light colored GR. I think the problem that most people have, is that most of the breeders who specifically market "RARE white English cream GRs" are irresponsible breeders, oftentimes cross-breeding them with Great Pyr's or the like to attain that super white coat. The dogs they breed are often horrible excuses for a proper Golden.

Now, I'm definitely not saying that all Goldens with English lines that may be a very light cream color are mixed-bred and deformed.... Just saying that because its a current fad to have one of those RARE english creams, as with anything, they are being overproduced and not well at that.


I happen to like the very light color. Now that I have my blonde and my redhead, maybe my next one will be a light cream colored one. Or maybe I'll just go the other direction and have a black lab. ;)
 

·
Where The Bitches Rule
Joined
·
6,429 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,889 Posts
I think you make many valid points on this subject, and I totally agree with the advice we should be giving to those seeking well raised puppies.

I find it amazing that the subject of the 'colour' of our beloved breed generates so much debate, in fact if you speak to any well known breeder here in the UK, they will all have an opinion on colour also, setting aside that they are breeding for health and conformation.

I have been to Championship shows here in the UK where the final line-up has been all extremely light dogs, therefore the judge obviously has a preference for 'colour'. Although they should be judging on breed standard, it seems obvious to me that in some cases they definitely pick out the light colour first and then judge the conformation second... how can we stand a chance if we have a darker golden when certain judges practice favouritism.

I have two mid golden dogs, very beautiful and in my opinion good examples in conformation and temperament. I now have the option to mate my bitch and am having a hard time choosing a dog on conformation/pedigree alone as colour is definitely playing a part. I'm not sure I want to mate her to an extremely light dog, as I feel very strongly it is a fashion, and something which is popular at the moment. In the end I feel that the traditional shades of gold will win out... but I'm not holding my breath.

At the end of the day all breeders should be attempting to breed the best possible examples of the breed they can, colour shouldn't really play a part.

I've never seen a top breeder getting rich from breeding puppies in the UK, it just doesn't happen!!! Anyone who breeds many litters and has countless dogs isn't doing it to improve the breed, they are making money. I would avoid them like the plague... just my opinion from my experiences here in the UK.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
86 Posts
I have two english goldens, and I can tell you that they are definately goldens. They have the sweet personality that constitues a golden. I love all goldens, every color. I just prefer the creams, but that is only my opinion. And everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,436 Posts
Are people looking for the really white Goldens in the UK? When I first spoke to Willow's breeder she asked what preference I had on colour. I said I prefer the 'golden' colour but it wasn't a high priorty of mine. She said that all but one of the people she spoke too wanted the darker shade of coat.

At the last show I went to a lady had a red golden who had American parents and she was saying that no one believed that he was a golden. He is the only red I have ever seen and he was beautiful.
 

·
Where The Bitches Rule
Joined
·
6,429 Posts
Lisa (I think that is Willow and Diesel's mom's name)
May I ask you how old Willow is in that photo in your signature? By her ears and body I am assuming she is still pretty young. I have normally seen a pup's adult coat color normally end up close to the same as it's ears color as a pup.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
633 Posts
Lisa (I think that is Willow and Diesel's mom's name)
May I ask you how old Willow is in that photo in your signature? By her ears and body I am assuming she is still pretty young. I have normally seen a pup's adult coat color normally end up close to the same as it's ears color as a pup.
Hank, our breeder told us the same as what you are saying here. That is, our breeder told us Gracie's coat would be would be close to the color of her ears. People ask me if she is a "creme" Golden and I have to explain all the time that she is light Golden. Here is a picture of Gracie now at 15 weeks.

I have some other thoughts on breeders. A top quality breeder does not really have to advertise - most of it is by word of mouth. There is sometimes a waiting list months long. There is an interview process, required visits with the entire family (we were there 2 hours - twice before we had our pup), and they don't ship their dogs. My breeder wanted to see not just me, but everyone in my family who would live with the dog. We also had to agree not to use chemicals on our lawn. There was a great deal of care that went into the whole process. I so appreciated that.

I know that I would never ever consider someone who markets a dog as "rare" anything - - - most of us can see thru that.
 

Attachments

·
Magica Goldens
Joined
·
1,363 Posts
I don't believe that most people have an issue with european style goldens. I think most golden lovers appreciate a golden in any shade - knowing that there are some style differences between what I would call the European style and what I would call the American style. What gets my hackles up is the term "english creme" - even worse the addition of "rare english creme". Last I knew goldens were pretty popular in the UK and there was no shortage of dogs - a plane ride apparently makes them rare (I don't get that). In my observation the term "English lines" is seems to be the more legitimate descriptive term.

When someone tells me that they are looking for a "rare english creme" or a breeder who sells "rare english cremes" I have the same reaction that I have to "hypoallergenic labradoodles" - I can't get passed the dishonest marketing factor...

Erica
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
633 Posts
IWhen someone tells me that they are looking for a "rare english creme" or a breeder who sells "rare english cremes" I have the same reaction that I have to "hypoallergenic labradoodles" - I can't get passed the dishonest marketing factor...

Erica
Absolutely - - - I so agree with this. That is the issue - the dishonest marketing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
699 Posts
When we got Shelby, she was 21 months, and almost white. Over the last couple of months, she's gotten considerably darker (although still very light) and her feathering is finally starting to get long. She's 27 months now.

When we first got her, my dh thought she looked funny. "I thought we were getting a Golden Retriever" Just last night I commented on how dark she was getting. He thought it was just that she needed a bath. No, in fact, she gets darker every time I bathe her! His next comment was priceless: well, then, stop bathing her! Turns out he's had a change of heart and kind of likes the lighter color now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,755 Posts
When we first got her, my dh thought she looked funny. "I thought we were getting a Golden Retriever" Just last night I commented on how dark she was getting. He thought it was just that she needed a bath. No, in fact, she gets darker every time I bathe her! His next comment was priceless: well, then, stop bathing her! Turns out he's had a change of heart and kind of likes the lighter color now.

Aww.... I think we can easily love whatever shade of gold our babies come in. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,569 Posts
A Golden, is a Golden, is a Golden. What the color of our Goldens coat is labeled is just semantics to me. Many people would label me as white. Technically, that is not true. I'm light, but I am not white.

If someone visits the forum looking for an English Cream, why can't we just help them find a "reputable" breeder who breeds "light" Goldens?

I'd love a Golden in every shade. I don't think I will ever fill that dream, but I can hang onto that hope.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,755 Posts
I'd love a Golden in every shade. I don't think I will ever fill that dream, but I can hang onto that hope.

Me too! I think they're all beautiful. I also agree with what you said about helping them find the dog of their dreams, whatever color that may be, rather than telling them that a light colored dog is incorrect.
 

·
Abby-Molly-Sophie-Cooper
Joined
·
180 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Erica,

The point I'm trying desperately to make is the general public is not any more aware of "Rare English Creams" than doodle breeders or BYB breeders who don't do clearances. So yes, it is up to us to help them out.

However, it would be great if the English Cream warning were incorporated into the general education as to the pitfalls to avoid on all fronts when searching for a breeder. While many of the members here are quite schooled in the differences, the new people who come here are not. If avoiding rare English Creams is part of the entire discussion of things to avoid then maybe every inquiry won't turn in to another heated debate between us while the potential Golden owner or member of the forum has long gone.
 

·
Magica Goldens
Joined
·
1,363 Posts
If someone visits the forum looking for an English Cream, why can't we just help them find a "reputable" breeder who breeds "light" Goldens?
And I have seen that happen more that a few times on this forum. The advice is generally a warning about the "english creme" marketing hype followed by a link to the GRCA referral or the local area breed club. A couple of times it's been - go talk to so and so from XYZ - which I think is fine, but I personally would rather give people information - what they should ask - what they should be asked and let them make their own decisions.

Erica
 
1 - 20 of 58 Posts
Top