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nealf_2000
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Hi,

My family and I are looking for a Golden Retriever puppy during the coming summer. We noticed a breeder named Sydney Blair who seems to a small breeder that gives a lot socialization time to her puppies. Her dogs look beautiful, but are from Russian and Hungarian lines. The pedigrees are listed on K9 data.

I am somewhat concerned that they only list European clearances for their dogs (FCI).

Does anyone have experience with this breeder?



SidneyBlair Goldens - About Us - Asheboro, NC
 

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I would not buy a puppy from this breeder. Too many red flags for me.

They claim to do OFA clearances, but all their posted clearances are from Europe.

All of our Goldens have pedigrees that are known to be healthy and have good hip/elbow scores. They, themselves, are tested with the proper methods (we use OFA) and have good scores.

Their girl Gloryia, was bred just before she was 2, so it would have been impossible for her to have final OFA clearances. My understanding is that dogs residing in the United States must have clearances through OFA, PennHip or OVC (Canada) after 24 mths of age.

Their male, Roman, the stud of the upcoming litter, will not be 2 until May18, 2013, so he cannot have OFA final clearances yet. They list full foreign clearances for him. Whether the next litter has been bred yet or not I cannot tell. And they are offering his stud services to outside bitches, although he is not yet 2.

Their girl Kyra, will not be 2 until August, and they do not mention breeding her, but they have full foreign clearances listed for her.

They do not show their dogs or do anything with them besides breeding, they depend on the championships of previous ancestors.

They are also pushing the line, that English Goldens are healthier than Americans which is not true. And the early neurological stimulation, is something I would expect almost all reputable breeders are doing or something similar.

They do not mention how much a puppy is or have copies of their contract and health guarantee on their website.

I am sure some members can recommend reputable breeders in your area. Good luck with your puppy search.
 

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Sorry but I'm automatically on alert whenever I see that someone has imported dogs from Rus Pekos in Russia. They seem to be just one giant broker. The dogs don't usually carry the Rus Pekos kennel name but you can see from the history on K9data that Rus Pekos owned them at one time.

I also wonder why people that import these dogs don't just go and get clearances done on the dogs that they import HERE.

Gloriya - Laskana Gloriya Gold - dob 7/2/2010 - website lists that she has heart, eye, and PRA clearances but no info on OFFA.org. It's possible that she has these clearances but the owner elected not to send the forms in. Also, according to k9data, the dog she is being bred to is a carrier of Icthyosis. I would ask to see copies of her current eye clearance, her heart clearance and both the genetic test results for PRA and Icthyosis.

BTW, Gloriya's mother, Renessans Karambolina is listed as HD-B (2) which is equivalent to Borderline dysplastic.

Kyra - YRA II. A Comitate Aureo - dob 8/25/11 - listed as HD-A, ED-0, eyes, heart, prcd-PRA clear and Icthyosis Carrier. Again, no info on OFFA.org. It's possible that she has these clearances but the owner elected not to send the forms in. Same advice as above - ask to see copies of all of those clearances/genetic test results.

Roman - Babelsbergi Cheese Cake - 5/18/11 - same as both of the girls above - ask to see copies of all of those clearances/genetic test results.

Obviously, Kyra and Roman are too young to have OFA Hip/Elbow final clearances but Gloriya is old enough and hasn't had her OFA rads done or if she has, she didn't pass and her owners chose to not release those results.

Her website states:
All of our Goldens have pedigrees that are known to be healthy and have good hip/elbow scores. They, themselves, are tested with the proper methods (we use OFA) and have good scores.
...
Eye health is very important. CERF is an eye registry that monitors eye health. We here at SidneyBlair Goldens test with CERF yearly.
Yet there are no listings with either OFA or CERF for any of these dogs - a discrepancy you can also ask her about.
 

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Kristy
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I've been a member of this forum for four years and if Ragtym says you need to keep looking, then that's all I need to know.... Please check out the stickies on our board "Choosing a Breeder" education will be power for you not to be taken advantage of by an unethical breeder.
 

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@Ragtym,

Are the clearances that they list available on an open database similar to OFA?
No, not an open database. I did find Roman's and Kyra's original clearances from Hungary in a document that's online, both were:

Csípőizület (hip joint in Hungarian) - Mentes / Free A
Kőnyőkizűlet (elbow joint in Hungarian) - Mentes / Free

I searched CERF's database and OFA's database separately because sometimes CERF doesn't get listed by OFA. Neither one had any listings for these dogs.

As far as the genetic testing, the results can be listed on the OFA site for a fee. There is also the GoldenDNA.org that people can voluntarily list the prcd-PRA, GR-PRA1 and Icthyosis testing but there is no record of these dogs there either.
 

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goldenfan
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It looks as if they are buying these dogs as adults with FCI clearances already done, which can be completed at a year, the same as in the UK. I would be asking why they only bought adults and why these dogs were for sale in the first place? They only appear to be breeding from them! Annef
 

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nealf_2000
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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks everyone for all your advice. We will be avoiding this breeder. I was so confused by the FCI certification that I didn't notice the other red-flags.

A special thanks to Millie's Mom.
 

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I've been a member of this forum for four years and if Ragtym says you need to keep looking, then that's all I need to know.... Please check out the stickies on our board "Choosing a Breeder" education will be power for you not to be taken advantage of by an unethical breeder.
I actually didn't see Ragtyme suggest to "keep looking". I think the message was "verify"....
 

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My wife and I recently lost our 13 year old American Golden, and began the search for a new companion. I also ran across the SidneyBlaire website, and had similar concerns and questions as the original poster nealf_2000. We also had a wonderful face-to-face with Sheila and Jon and the dogs, and my take on this breeder is very different than what is implied in many of the comments above. I am not a breeder, so please take my comments from that perspective.

We were interested in the European Goldens for a variety of reasons, and I looked at dozens of websites for this variety. Virtually all of these sites cite the two studies (AKC and UKC) comparing average longevity and health between American and European Goldens. MilliesMom wrote "They are also pushing the line, that English Goldens are healthier than Americans which is not true." Could you please cite the reference that contradicts these two studies?

I did talk to Sheila about the OFA statement. The statement was poorly worded, and appears misleading. Sheila told me that all of the yearly eye CERF tests are submitted to OFA, and that the upcoming dogs will have heart certifications submitted to OFA. Hips on US bred adults will be either OFA or BVA when the dog are old enough. It's likely that the new certifications simply haven't been updated yet. I was informed that Gloriya's Icthyosis test came back Clear, and that is not yet updated in the database.

I spent many hours looking at pedigrees and k9data for many European dogs currently being used in US breeding programs. Many of these, including the SidneyBlaire breeding pair, are evaluated using the European FCI standard. The two SidneyBlaire dogs were bred, born, raised, shown to their championships, and evaluated using the standard European tests, at the ages specified by the standard. Some of the comments above IMPLY that European evaluations are somehow incorrect or not to be trusted. In a different post, I specifically asked if there was any reason to distrust FCI evaluations. Only Anne (Annef) replied, and she indicated that the FCI evaluations were comparable to OFA ratings. Otherwise, an argument could be made that no European Golden was suited for breeding... It would be simpler for everyone if there were a single dysplasia rating system employed by everyone. I'm not aware of any GRCA mandate or recommendation that indicates that all breeding Goldens be certified by OFA. Based on what I have read, I see no reason to criticize a breeder for accepting any of the several accepted hip evaluation protocols, including FCI, simply because it is not OFA.

We had the opportunity to visit with Sheila and Jon and to talk about dogs, certifications, upbringing, breeding plans, etc. It is apparent to me that the breeders are just getting started in the breeding business (one finished litter another on the way). They selected top quality stock with the goal of breeding outstanding, healthy companion dogs. They told me that they do have plans to begin showing some of their dogs in the near future now that their children are old enough to allow them the time commitment to show, and they are actively looking for specific types and backgrounds for their breeding program. I was impressed with their breeding facility, their knowledge, and their commitment to their dogs. I was impressed with their kindness to know-nothings like my wife and me. We enjoyed our entire visit, and are looking forward to meeting with them again. Additionally, Sheila has been extremely responsive with email communication whenever I have questions or need information. Simply put, they are a class act and definitely highly recommended.

Like many of the breeders I researched, SidneyBlaire takes pre-whelping reservations for their litters (in this case, 3 male and 3 female). We started our search for puppies well into Gloriya's pregnancy, and the female reservations were all taken. Sheila did put us her "waiting list" and if there are more than 3 females (wife wants a lady...) we hope to bring one home. Otherwise, we will ask to be put on the next reservation list.

We have no concerns that have not been addressed by SidneyBlair Goldens. We are anxiously waiting for Gloriya's delivery and hoping for a bunch of females!
 

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So the original post was done back in April and was noted that Glorya was having pups at that time and was bred under age of 2?? Did it not take? Or was this for this upcoming litter?? Confused now. Still would love to see this "breeder" do something with her dogs..obedience, CCA, therapy..something.
 

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I would not buy from them. My opinion is that a hobby breeder starts with the hobby which is competition. Then they breed to get their next generation of prospects.

They as you put it are in the breeding business. It also irks me beyond no end when people refer to goldens as "white", a genetic impossibility. European lines that have been imported to the US lately certainly seem skew to the very cream side of the color spectrum. But they are not and should not be and can not be white. But of course "white" is the hot fad right now so, if you start a business it is always good to have the hot item you can get top dollar for.

Personally, if I wanted to get a dog breed to the European standard, which I do find attractive and appreciate a well structured dog, I would be buying from Canada. There is large group of the breeders in the Onterio area have breed this style for decades. They have solid programs with champions they have put on their own dogs, they know their dogs and have longstanding relationships with European breeders from whom they import.

It always makes me wonder if all these "new breeders" with a passion for British/European/English style goldens ever thought to look north of the border to find a mentor who has an understanding of these lines and years of experience who would be closer to their own time zone should a phone call be needed?

Honestly there was a single nail in the coffin for me when I read the website. It was this:
"We had her bred with a Russian champion while she was still in Russia. She delivered 10 beautiful and healthy puppies for us in August of 2012 and she was a terrific mother!"

They never even had time to live with her, bond with her or lover her before they got her in whelp! This is my own oppinion but, that smacks of breeding for money. She got to go through the import process pregnant.:doh:

About 90% of the profile pictures on their site are laying down, siting or standing in odd positions where you can not see the dog's structure. Those that are side views are not good to view structure either. So, being in the US and not knowing what their championships mean, I would have hoped for stacked (hand or free) photos that show obvious quality a champion should possess or maybe even a show win photo.

I really do hope they get out and show or do something with their dogs other than make puppies. I also hope they will OFFA clearance their US born dogs or all the dogs. We need more reputable breeders in it for the love of dogs, they just are not there yet in my opinion.

Best of luck to Ellisda1 and the future pup.
 

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Actually the bitch was apparently bred very near her second birthday. According to the SidneyBlair breeder, DOB of the mom is 7/2/2010 and the first litter was 8/31/2012. Might be a few days short of two years, but you breed when they come into heat. Note that she was not bred by SidneyBlaire breeders but by the European breeder.
 

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Gloriya "delivered 10 beautiful and healthy puppies for us in August of 2012 and she was a terrific mother!"
Gloriya's birthdate is 7/2/2010. Puppies in August of 2012 seems like under 2 years old to me. Though I will grant it could have possibly occurred exactly on her birth day if she only carried them to 58 days. Normal gustation is considered 63 days with 58 days usually being early but still likely to be viable.
 

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I would not buy from them. My opinion is that a hobby breeder starts with the hobby which is competition. Then they breed to get their next generation of prospects.

They as you put it are in the breeding business. It also irks me beyond no end when people refer to goldens as "white", a genetic impossibility. European lines that have been imported to the US lately certainly seem skew to the very cream side of the color spectrum. But they are not and should not be and can not be white. But of course "white" is the hot fad right now so, if you start a business it is always good to have the hot item you can get top dollar for.

Personally, if I wanted to get a dog breed to the European standard, which I do find attractive and appreciate a well structured dog, I would be buying from Canada. There is large group of the breeders in the Onterio area have breed this style for decades. They have solid programs with champions they have put on their own dogs, they know their dogs and have longstanding relationships with European breeders from whom they import.

It always makes me wonder if all these "new breeders" with a passion for British/European/English style goldens ever thought to look north of the border to find a mentor who has an understanding of these lines and years of experience who would be closer to their own time zone should a phone call be needed?

Honestly there was a single nail in the coffin for me when I read the website. It was this:
"We had her bred with a Russian champion while she was still in Russia. She delivered 10 beautiful and healthy puppies for us in August of 2012 and she was a terrific mother!"

They never even had time to live with her, bond with her or lover her before they got her in whelp! This is my own oppinion but, that smacks of breeding for money. She got to go through the import process pregnant.:doh:

About 90% of the profile pictures on their site are laying down, siting or standing in odd positions where you can not see the dog's structure. Those that are side views are not good to view structure either. So, being in the US and not knowing what their championships mean, I would have hoped for stacked (hand or free) photos that show obvious quality a champion should possess or maybe even a show win photo.

I really do hope they get out and show or do something with their dogs other than make puppies. I also hope they will OFFA clearance their US born dogs or all the dogs. We need more reputable breeders in it for the love of dogs, they just are not there yet in my opinion.

Best of luck to Ellisda1 and the future pup.
The k9data shows the bitch in a stack.

Not quite sure why you reacted so strongly about White Goldens. There in nothing on the SidneyBlaire site mentioning white. The majority of the European (based on the k9data photos) are in fact described as cream, not white, which is how the SidneyBlair Goldens are described. It also seems to me that a Canadian Cream or a European Cream is simply a matter of preference. If you look at the pedigrees of top Canadian dogs, European stock is very close to the front of these dogs. And genetic distance is not necessarily a bad thing... Don't know if it's true or not, but I've been informed that getting a European dog Championed is substantially more difficult than it is for an American or Canadian, and that rating should reflect positively on the quality of the dog's structure.
 

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Don't know if it's true or not, but I've been informed that getting a European dog Championed is substantially more difficult than it is for an American or Canadian, and that rating should reflect positively on the quality of the dog's structure.
Actually, the European championships are easier.

Champion certs are much easier to win in Europe as they have a champions class which means that once a dog has won its title (CAC's)it competes in the champions class and dogs that have not won a CAC do not compete against champions Annef
 

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European is not harder, UK Champions are quite a bit harder as the winner of the CC is competing against all the dogs of their gender even the champions.

White is repeatedly referenced in the site here are the quotes...

"Gloriya is extremely loving and obedient. She is very white! Her coat is beautiful and lays flat."

"Kyra is a beautiful Golden with a decidedly feminine appearance. She is a wonderful size - not too big and not too small. She has a lovely head-set and muzzle and a beautiful thick, white coat which has little to no wave. And those deep chocolate brown eyes will just melt your heart! "

"Piper is our newest girl. She was imported from Romania. She is possibly the sweetest girl ever! From the minute she arrived, she was immediately comfortable in her new surroundings. She shows lots of love and affection and is very obedient. And she is absolutely stunning! She has the whitest coat we've ever seen!

"English Goldens are known as English Cream Golden Retriever, English-Type Golden Retriever, British Golden Retriever, or White Golden Retriever."

You are correct there is a better stacked picture for Gloriya on K9Data that was link by Elena Ponomareva, I am guessing from Russia. The owners now have not posted this or any other quality stacked photo to thier site.

As far as dogs in a pedigree, the pedigree is never more important than the dog. The top show dogs across the world have siblings who are pets because they should not be bred. They have that same pedigree as their top winning siblings, the difference is in the quality of the individual dogs. Also, if you look far enough back even the sad puppymill mommas will have champions back there.
 

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Note that she was not bred by SidneyBlaire breeders but by the European breeder.
At SidneyBlaire request as they state on thier website, "We had her bred with a Russian champion while she was still in Russia."

By that same reasoning I could send a 12 month old girl ("you breed them when they come in heat") to a stud dog have her bred and say the other breeder did it.:doh:
 

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Actually, I believe the GRCA COE recommends that any hip or elbow clearance that you breed on is done after or on 24 months of age.... So a bitch bred before she turns two has been bred underage. Also, if you live in the US, your dogs should have accepted US clearances. Additionally, there are genetic tests for two forms of PRA and icthyosis which should also be done...
 

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Pearl, Lila, Betty's mom
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It seems to me that "you breed when they come into heat" is caring about the money and not the dogs. Without clearances BEFORE they are bred they demonstrate that health does not matter to them. Without the clearances, you are essentially willing to bred unhealthy dogs because you have not determined that they aren't. Greeders.


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