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Suggestions on dealing with a difficult breeder

26687 Views 85 Replies 46 Participants Last post by  surette-23
Hi all, I introduced Riley a couple of weeks ago and mentioned that the breeder we purchased him from is washing her hands of any responsibility for his heart murmur. The purpose of this post is twofold. First of all I am trying to make contact with the other person who's new puppy also developed a heart murmur after being taken home. The breeder is Sandra Lynn of Waterdown and her dogs are registered under the kennel name "Felicity's". I am hoping that person will see this post and contact me. I'm interested in the response she received when she informed the breeder of the pup's affliction.

Secondly, I am seeking thoughtful suggestions as to how to proceed in dealing with this woman. When I purchased Riley I opted not to pay an extra $200 far a health guarantee because she very proudly documented the health clearances of her bloodlines, and if any normal health issues occurred throughout his life I was fully prepared to deal with them. However when at 12 weeks my vet discovered he had a gr 2 heart murmur which had progressed to gr 3 by 16 weeks I felt that the breeder should take some reponsibility. We are too attached to Riley to give him up and will deal with whatever circumstances present themselves throughout his life, but my requests to have her at least cover the cost of the diagnostic ultrasound have been met with animosity and accusations that I am trying to extort money from her. I've given up trying to reaon with her and am now contemplating legal action. Some honest, objective input would be very much appreciated.
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I attribute some of his slenderness to the amount of exercise we gave him, hikes, running on the beach, runs when he was younger and of course a balance raw diet.

Thank you for all of your input and kind words. I will be patient and see what goldie becomes available and is right for me. Perhaps not a puppy puppy.

We spoke with the Waterdown breeder you were in contact with and hopefully my first 15 posts go quickly, so I can share the information we have if you are interested.

We just purchased our next goldie boy from another breeder and can't wait to bring him home! We found a fantastic breeder that had a line that fit what we were looking for - just like you are.

Good luck in your search! :)
 

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Good evening Brookelane,

I too have information on this breeder. I would be very happy to hear where you found your new addition. So yes post quickly and then you can pm me.

I hope Riley is doing well, it would be nice to hear.

Please post pics of your newbie too when you get them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
I've not been back for a while, but have noted various attitudes and responses from different members. I'm responding to your queries first as you seem to have some possible information about the breeder I purchased Riley from. I must ask though, if Burnsey is not your puppy, how are you associated with him?
Riley was born on May 5'th of this year. His father's name was Winslow and I don't recall the name of the mother. I received your pm but apparently can't reply until I've made 15 posts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
I also prefer them "lanky".

There is no "taller, lankier type." There is one type, different colors. To the extent a dog differs from the one type (i.e., the breed standard) it is an inferior dog, with (to my mind) a correspondingly heightened risk of health problems and indicative of a bad breeder.

If you want a taller, lankier Golden, get an Irish Setter.
There are in fact two different breed standards, the English and the American.
See this link for details: Golden Retrievers|British English White Cream Golden Retrievers - The English Goldens

The "lankier" type is also my preference in body and head style, ie. less stocky, traditionally with a rounded cranial profile and somewhat more tapered or "conical" muzzle. These goldens also seem to be more readily found in the more coppery to reddish shades than their English counterparts. Both types of goldens are beautiful. A traditional American type, however, would never be confused with an Irish Setter.
 

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There are in fact two different breed standards, the English and the American.
See this link for details: Golden Retrievers|British English White Cream Golden Retrievers - The English Goldens
I'm sorry, I sure don't want to be offensive, but the description of the "differences in KC and AKC standards" for Goldens in your provided link is just . . . well, it's just wrong and biased and misleading. And I actually laughed at the pictures offered for comparison. I can do the same thing to show bias the other way. See?

Here is a representative English Golden:


Here is a representative AKC standard Golden:


I can do the same thing with the other photos. I personally would not use that link as any kind of authority. I'm sure there are folks here with intimate knowledge of the differences between the standards, if there are any, but I don't think that link is it. Someone educate me if I'm wrong, please.
 

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I'm sorry, I sure don't want to be offensive, but the description of the "differences in KC and AKC standards" for Goldens in your provided link is just . . . well, it's just wrong and biased and misleading.

I personally would not use that link as any kind of authority. I'm sure there are folks here with intimate knowledge of the differences between the standards, if there are any, but I don't think that link is it.

I agree, it is amazing how some breeders can manipulate the facts. I looked at this website and it is certainly not a place that I would consider buying a puppy. It has all the red flags that point to a less than reputable breeder.
 

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English Goldens

English Goldens Are Healthier......Right?

Wrong. The claim that English Goldens have lower cancer rates is based on a survey done in the U.K. conducted years apart from a similar (but not identical) U.S. survey. It is important to note that this survey was not a study of English style Golden Retrievers vs. American style Golden Retrievers, but rather one study done in the U.K. and one study done in the U.S. N
either survey was done with the intent to control against one another, and both were on only a few hundred dogs each. There was no control for who reported, no control for what style of dog they actually had (all the "U.S." dogs could have been 'English style' dogs living in the U.S.!), and no control for what role diagnostics played in the differences in rates.


All the other research on cancer in Golden Retrievers, and it's extensive, has shown us that there's no increase or decrease in risk depending on whether your dog is English style or American style. The people who sell light Goldens as "White" "Platinum" or "English Cream/Creme" often cite these two surveys as bogus proof of the superior health of their dogs. They prey on unsuspecting puppy buyers, many of whom are distraught over losing a beloved pet to cancer and are just hoping to avoid the pain of losing another young dog. These unscrupulous breeders often charge excessively high prices for their puppies, marketing them as "rare" or "exotic." It is wrong for these "breeders" to lie to unsuspecting and trusting puppy buyers just to make a buck.
Portions of this article are adapted from the GRCA website and "What Exactly Is An ENGLISH Golden Retriever?" by Bev Brown.

 

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I htink that she is also misreading ....

Yes there are two different standards... actually there are more than that as each kennel club from the various countries has their own standard ...

So the English Standard that you refer to is not the Standard for English Goldens as a separate breed rather it is the Golden Retriever Breed Standard in the United Kingdom. If you go to Canada you will find that the Golden retriever standard is written differently than here in the U.S. this does not mean that there is a separate breed of Canadian Golden retriever, it is just the breed standard of that countries kennel club. There is a New Zealand Kennel Club Golden Retriever breed standard, and Australian Golden Retriever breed standard etc etc etc.

The reality is that many of us who breed golden retrievers of English or European descent do breed to the breed standard of the UK Kennel Club. The style of dog is slightly different but there are pros and cons to the dogs that are more American in style and pros and cons to dogs that are more English in style but the reality is that they are the same breed and the breed standards are country specific not breed specific. The reality is that someone could breed to the Peruvian breed standard if they so desired. It does not mean that there is a Peruvian golden retriever, it just means that a dog might fit their breed standard better than it fits the one here.

Personally I bring my dogs up to Canada to show, the Canadian standard seems to fit my dogs better. It does not mean that my dogs are Canadian golden retrievers...

as far as health and such... no difference... my goldens are no healthier or less healthy than american dogs that is just a farce and it seems that the breeder that you are looking at is perpetrating a falsehood in an attempt to make her dogs out to be something more than they are....
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 ·
Thank-you for your thoughtful responses.

Just wanted to say that I appreciate the feedback I've received since I first posted about Riley's condition. He is doing well and will be back in to the vet this month for a checkup at which time we will be planning his cardiogram.

I also wanted to clear up a bit of apparent confusion. Perhaps from a strictly legal point of view I don't have a case for breach of contract. However that does not negate the fact that this woman presents herself as being the epitome of a responsible breeder, proudly showcases the bloodlines of the dogs she breeds yet, when confronted with medical proof that not one but two of the puppies from this litter have heart murmurs, first suggests that my vet is not capable of making such a diagnosis accurately and then, when the murmur progresses to a higher level of intensity basically says "sorry about your luck" and refuses to acknowledge any responsibility on her part. Not by any stretch of the imagination could such attitude be considered justified.

The decision to buy from her was not made lightly either. My wife and I first went to see two other pups from an earlier litter (different mom than Riley's) which she had for sale. During that visit we met Riley's parents and spent well over an hour discussing breeding practices, holisitic treatments, over-vaccination controversy, and were shown years worth of photo albums of sires, dames, ribbons and champions. In short we were impressed and I wrote a check for a $300 deposit on a pup from the upcoming litter. In the intervening period up until Riley was about six weeks old we were in constant communication via email and received photos of past litters and (apparent) testimonials from satisfied owners. Only when it came time to arrange to come to pick a puppy and make final payment did warning flags arise. The price she now specified was $300 more than what we had originally discussed. That's when she said we could have him for less if we didn't want a health guarantee. Things escalated from there to the point where we asked for our deposit back, but she refused. By then we agreed to pick a puppy since, in spite of our concerns about her business practices, we trusted her breeding ethics and the puppies were adorable. The rest you already know. So, do I have buyer's remorse? Certainly, but not because we made a hasty or ill advised decision. It really results from a culmination of events and a very uprofessional attitude from this breeder. We love Riley deeply and wouldn't trade him for the world, regardless of whether she sees fit to accept any financial reponsibility. However, I would suggest that you steer clear of buying a dog from Sandra Lynn based on our personal experience with her questionable ethics and practices.
 

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I am sorry, it still seems to me that you did not spend enough time researching this breeder before making your decision. Are they a member of the GRCA? Their local GR club? And mostly importantly, did you check for all four clearances on all the dogs in 5 generations behind your pup?? Because any breeder could pose as a reputable breeder but it is up to you to find out for yourself. I looked up Felicity's on OFFA.org. There were only two clearances done on ONE golden retriever with that prefix. Many backyard breeders "prey" on people who are less knowledgeable. Almost happened to me too, as I knew nothing at the time.. And then I found this forum. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
You're missing my point

I'm sorry, I sure don't want to be offensive, but the description of the "differences in KC and AKC standards" for Goldens in your provided link is just . . . well, it's just wrong and biased and misleading. And I actually laughed at the pictures offered for comparison. I can do the same thing to show bias the other way. See?

Here is a representative English Golden:


Here is a representative AKC standard Golden:


I can do the same thing with the other photos. I personally would not use that link as any kind of authority. I'm sure there are folks here with intimate knowledge of the differences between the standards, if there are any, but I don't think that link is it. Someone educate me if I'm wrong, please.
I didn't post my original response for any reason than to illustrate that there are in fact different physical qualities and characteristics to certain types of goldens. Your rather offhanded remark that there are no "lankier" types, or that the poster should purchase an Irish Setter were rather insensitive. I also didn't post the link regarding the differences in breed standards as representing any particular authority, but rather to illustrate that there are most certainly different styles of goldens which the pictures clearly illustrate. I intended no bias as to one being superior to another, only my own personal preference to which I am most certainly entitled, as are you to your own.
 

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I am SO sorry for your pup...how is he now?
I am also SO glad I came across your post: I have been talking to the same Sandy for a bit now about a 6 month old she wants to sell...she's being a bit shady about the cost, her last (VERY WORDY!!) email saying something about charging extra for a health guarantee.

I am so sorry about your issues, and sincerely hope Riley is doing well....and thank you SO MUCH for your post. I had a red flag weeks ago about this person, and now I know for certain.
Thanks so much...and prayers for Riley.
 

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We spoke with the Waterdown breeder you were in contact with and hopefully my first 15 posts go quickly, so I can share the information we have if you are interested.

We just purchased our next goldie boy from another breeder and can't wait to bring him home! We found a fantastic breeder that had a line that fit what we were looking for - just like you are.

Good luck in your search! :)
I don't know what that means as far as "hoping the 15 posts go quickly"...but I'd like info on her. I've been talking to her and she just emailed me about 12 times with recommendation letters and pedigree info...but COMPLETELY ignored my earlier email about my confusion with her cost/extra $$ for health guarantee.

Thanks!
Tanya:confused:
 

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Just wanted to say that I appreciate the feedback I've received since I first posted about Riley's condition. He is doing well and will be back in to the vet this month for a checkup at which time we will be planning his cardiogram.

I also wanted to clear up a bit of apparent confusion. Perhaps from a strictly legal point of view I don't have a case for breach of contract. However that does not negate the fact that this woman presents herself as being the epitome of a responsible breeder, proudly showcases the bloodlines of the dogs she breeds yet, when confronted with medical proof that not one but two of the puppies from this litter have heart murmurs, first suggests that my vet is not capable of making such a diagnosis accurately and then, when the murmur progresses to a higher level of intensity basically says "sorry about your luck" and refuses to acknowledge any responsibility on her part. Not by any stretch of the imagination could such attitude be considered justified.

The decision to buy from her was not made lightly either. My wife and I first went to see two other pups from an earlier litter (different mom than Riley's) which she had for sale. During that visit we met Riley's parents and spent well over an hour discussing breeding practices, holisitic treatments, over-vaccination controversy, and were shown years worth of photo albums of sires, dames, ribbons and champions. In short we were impressed and I wrote a check for a $300 deposit on a pup from the upcoming litter. In the intervening period up until Riley was about six weeks old we were in constant communication via email and received photos of past litters and (apparent) testimonials from satisfied owners. Only when it came time to arrange to come to pick a puppy and make final payment did warning flags arise. The price she now specified was $300 more than what we had originally discussed. That's when she said we could have him for less if we didn't want a health guarantee. Things escalated from there to the point where we asked for our deposit back, but she refused. By then we agreed to pick a puppy since, in spite of our concerns about her business practices, we trusted her breeding ethics and the puppies were adorable. The rest you already know. So, do I have buyer's remorse? Certainly, but not because we made a hasty or ill advised decision. It really results from a culmination of events and a very uprofessional attitude from this breeder. We love Riley deeply and wouldn't trade him for the world, regardless of whether she sees fit to accept any financial reponsibility. However, I would suggest that you steer clear of buying a dog from Sandra Lynn based on our personal experience with her questionable ethics and practices.
Thank you so much...you've helped make my choice VERY clear...and just in the knick of time. My spidey senses too were going crazy!!

SO happy that Riley is doing well.

Will be searching a REPUTABLE breeder here in Ontario.

Thanks so much again.
 

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Tanya - you followed your instinct and that's what matters. My correspondence with this breeder was very strange and after I questioned her on a few things about the bloodline of her dogs, she blocked my email address after writing me a 1000 word essay on why I didn't deserve to own a dog. One of the strangest experiences I've ever had. We bought a new golden boy from a great breeder and are completely in love with our newest family member.
 
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