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Missy Albrecht & Eric too.
You can continue to gamble or you can go with the evidence.

Your dog could have picked up something in the environment, got sick from that, a lot of illnesses are self-limiting. We can not conclude cause and effect... from coincidence, from a one-time event. Same goes for anecdotes/or from what 1 or 2 or 10 owners report, doesn't even rise to the level of a case history report-- that's why we collect facts in a scientific way.

A large majority of dogs with diet-related DCM were eating foods made by the boutique co.s, - all the rage, a fad... most were GF & used unfamiliar ingredients. These require,*expertise* & research facilities, to get right ... and that's what those co.s didn't & don't have. The Big Four do & have had so for years. Reason enough to choose from them. But in addition, they've NO cases of DCM, despite their huge marketshare. Remarkable and very re-assurring. No contest from the standpoint of science.

The small co. ERIC/Maggie's Voice just recommended - another example of no expertise, no research. The reason it has no cases, is so few dogs eat its food, so unlikely to turn up any victims (yet). And it's only after dog gets sick, goes to vet AND vet, if knowledgable, diagnosis dog correctly and then reports it to FDA properly, that that his case gets counted. The only definitive way to diagnose DCM is echo cardiogram, very expensive. DCM is a silent disease, some dogs drop dead from it and most are never autopsied.

Folks who do dog shows and compeition obed. - know folks who have been feeding Purina or the like for years and winning, w healthy dogs. And these people often do routine echos on their breeding stock, unlike the rest of us. DCM would have first shown up there if the Big Four were making mistakes in their formulas.

BTW Hills (Science diets) is the Fourth big co., part of Eukanuba now - also ollows WSAVA guidelines and no DCM

The earth is not flat. You know there are quacks and well-meaning amateurs on the internet. Also, there are folks who've absorbed advertisers' techniques and can mount a convincing argument to bolster what they may sincerely believe in & meld their ideas w. the facts they have at their disposal. Those with big followings are gurus. Canine nutrition is not a DIY project.

Yes, there may be other safe dog foods out there beside the Big Four, but until DCM is better understood, no way of knowing which. Why on earth choose a co. with NO track record or choose any diet from a co. that's already managed to sicken some dogs.
 

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Missy Albrecht & Eric too.
You can continue to gamble or you can go with the evidence.

Your dog could have picked up something in the environment, got sick from that, a lot of illnesses are self-limiting. We can not conclude cause and effect... from coincidence, from a one-time event. Same goes for anecdotes/or from what 1 or 2 or 10 owners report, doesn't even rise to the level of a case history report-- that's why we collect facts in a scientific way.

A large majority of dogs with diet-related DCM were eating foods made by the boutique co.s, - all the rage, a fad... most were GF & used unfamiliar ingredients. These require,*expertise* & research facilities, to get right ... and that's what those co.s didn't & don't have. The Big Four do & have had so for years. Reason enough to choose from them. But in addition, they've NO cases of DCM, despite their huge marketshare. Remarkable and very re-assurring. No contest from the standpoint of science.

The small co. ERIC/Maggie's Voice just recommended - another example of no expertise, no research. The reason it has no cases, is so few dogs eat its food, so unlikely to turn up any victims (yet). And it's only after dog gets sick, goes to vet AND vet, if knowledgable, diagnosis dog correctly and then reports it to FDA properly, that that his case gets counted. The only definitive way to diagnose DCM is echo cardiogram, very expensive. DCM is a silent disease, some dogs drop dead from it and most are never autopsied.

Folks who do dog shows and compeition obed. - know folks who have been feeding Purina or the like for years and winning, w healthy dogs. And these people often do routine echos on their breeding stock, unlike the rest of us. DCM would have first shown up there if the Big Four were making mistakes in their formulas.

BTW Hills (Science diets) is the Fourth big co., part of Eukanuba now - also ollows WSAVA guidelines and no DCM

The earth is not flat. You know there are quacks and well-meaning amateurs on the internet. Also, there are folks who've absorbed advertisers' techniques and can mount a convincing argument to bolster what they may sincerely believe in & meld their ideas w. the facts they have at their disposal. Those with big followings are gurus. Canine nutrition is not a DIY project.

Yes, there may be other safe dog foods out there beside the Big Four, but until DCM is better understood, no way of knowing which. Why on earth choose a co. with NO track record or choose any diet from a co. that's already managed to sicken some dogs.
ROFL, wut? :doh:

The diet I recommended had never had a recall, has NO deficiencies or excesses and has never been linked to making dogs sick and has no issues with taurine deficientcy related DCM. Has 100% USA SOURCED vitamin and mineral package ( Purina, Nutro, Iams, Hills get theirs from China) I have raised 3 Golden's, a Great Dane and a boxer on this food without any issues. Even with no issues in the past, when I read about the UC Davis study about the low taurine diet related DCM issue, I had my dog tested and her whole blood taurine level was 363. So to say I'm being wreckless or gambling on my dogs nutrition and related health is until and frankly offensive. Especially if you read through this and other threads I posted in you'd realize I'm not just a guy reading off the internet.

I don't gamble with ANYTHING with my dogs and have over 20 years of canine nutrition background and have been to the R&D labs and manufacturing plant of Purina, Nutro, Wellness, Hills, Natura (Innova dog food) and the Iams/Eukanuba and have spoken to their veterinary nutritionists. So I'm pretty capable vetting a food for excesses and deficiencies which at the end of the day if how you tell if a food is safe to feed our can present issues feeding long term.

Now as far as what I've said on the DCM issue, some people need to feed a grain free due to allergies and other health issues like diabetics (high protein/fat low carb can help dogs get off insulin) where those foods are working for their dogs, so those people may elect to stay in the grain free food but should have the whole blood and plasma tested every 6 months. Again there is no gamble but doing what is best for their dogs.
 

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Also, my recommendations have been mirroring what had been said from Dr Stern who is the lead in the UC Davis DCM study. That is stay away from legumes our limit to the least number of ingredients and keep them out of the to 10 ingredients. The study is under peer review and until the findings and recommendations are made public, you can only go by what info is it there by the people doing the study.

But what you're saying is that only food from the "big 4" is the only food you should feed and that's just not true and that is reckless to say I'm my opinion.


Oh, and Iams is the parent company of Eukanuba which was recently bought by Mars who owns Nutro and the old Natura company (Innova and California Natural) Hill's is owned by Colgate-Palmolive.
 

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I'm being pulled toward Purina Pro Plan. Murphy had critically low taurine, after being on Orijen. Echo was normal, had taurine supplement for a short time, switched to Fromm Gold and after three months taurine was over three hundred. I them switched to Farmina Ancestral Grain, which did great in the study comparing foods on the Facebook page. He is doing great on it BUT, am I doing what's best for him?
Can someone throw in there two cents here and tell me Farmina is a great food? Thanks
 

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I'm being pulled toward Purina Pro Plan. Murphy had critically low taurine, after being on Orijen. Echo was normal, had taurine supplement for a short time, switched to Fromm Gold and after three months taurine was over three hundred. I them switched to Farmina Ancestral Grain, which did great in the study comparing foods on the Facebook page. He is doing great on it BUT, am I doing what's best for him?
Can someone throw in there two cents here and tell me Farmina is a great food? Thanks
Farmina is a new food to me, only hearing about it the last couple years. At it's price point I would never feed a kibble, but would just feed 100% raw (I would feed nature's variety instinct raw). I do supplement with nature's variety raw in the medallion and patties to boost the nutrition level of the kibble I feed but don't feed it exclusively.

As far as what best... There is no real answer. Most foods... You're just splitting hairs I'm the premium space. I tell people to look at what foods try to differentiate themselves with. Like the food I feed... It has 100% USA SOURCE vitamins/minerals package not from China, DHA gold (the side fish get it from (a sea algae or kelp) and BC30 (encapsulated probiotics to make sure it all arrives alone in the go tract, survived the stomach acid). So for me the ingredients are great but the "features are important to me".

The only true way to answer your question Murphy1 is to make sure there are no excesses or deficiencies in the food. To that you need the recommend table for mins/Max level of every nutrient (I think from AAFCO) and call the food company to get the full guaranteed analysis to compare to the table. I also believe in rotating the for every 10-12 months. There is no good that is technically 100% complete and balanced no matter what the food companies want you to believe.
 

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On the Farmina topic, I just transitioned my guys off. They gained 10lbs each in 4 months. And one was greasy. We had constant battle with soft stools. Now on Royal Canin Rx (Rabbit)


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Usually gassy and loose stools are from feeding to much at a time. The more usable and digestible the food is, the less you have to feed. What happens is the dog just can't digest enough of it fast enough and it will be loose and certainly gassy.This seems reinforced by the fact they added 10 pounds.
 

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I was feeding 1 cup am and pm. It’s a high calorie food. Since switching to the Royal Canin, stools have firmed up.


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That Royal Canin rabbit is 287 calories a cup,,,,,that seems way too low. Farmina is 400 a cup, yes high calorie,, but 800 calories a day for a 90lb dog doesn't seem like much.
 

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That Royal Canin rabbit is 287 calories a cup,,,,,that seems way too low. Farmina is 400 a cup, yes high calorie,, but 800 calories a day for a 90lb dog doesn't seem like much.


Correct. I am upping how much I feed them to 1 1/2 cups a.m. and p.m. They will also get treats. Ideally, Iwant them to eat 900 cal a day maximum. That would be to get down to 75 pounds.


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I used to feed Innova dog food and it was 537 kcals per cup. It worked well for my last golden as I only feed 1 cup morning and I cup evening. I liked it cause the last about of food you feed them time eating to let weight and the less air being gulped which should reduce the risk of boat or gastric torsion.

Then jennretz, you're thinking correctly. The average dog the size or Goldens and Labs (60-80 lbs) should eat from 900-1200 calories based on are metabolism and age and you feed based on that.
 

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Then why not stick with Farmina at 400 a cup. Ingredients are superior vs RC which the first ingredient is potato.
 

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I recently learned about DCM in dogs and i had Luna on Blue wilderness then blue buffalo. Both are suspect foods with DCM cases my vet confirmed. I am changing her food and trying to research to make sure the food also meets wsava guidelines as well. I think i am getting Royal Canin Golden retriever. I keep hearing the food is huge. Luna inhales her blue buffalo she’s on now way too fast. that is small pieces. I am bad at trying to picture what the RC golden retriever food is for size. I know its suppose to promote chewing. Is it dangerous if my dog did swallow a few pieces as she adjusts?
 

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I switched my boy to Royal Canin in August, after much agonizing about food choices, and have never looked back.
The pieces are large, about 1" square, and it does definitely require a little chewing. I think there is little chance your dog would try to swallow a piece whole. I find this food also keeps the teeth whiter.
The large pieces are really hard to measure. I had initially emailed the company re: appropriate feeding amounts and they were very good at responding. I ended up weighing the food each time to maintain consistency.
One interesting thing is that our food obsessed cat kept trying to steal a piece of kibble out of the dog's dish while he ate and was successful a few times and did actually chew this food up with his little cat teeth. Now we are on to his tricks and scout him away while the dog eats.
 

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Then why not stick with Farmina at 400 a cup. Ingredients are superior vs RC which the first ingredient is potato.


You certainly can. It really is dog dependent. My two didn’t do well on it. It’s a journey is what I have found and I have been trying to find solution that will work for all 3 and their specific needs (Charlie had FHO and Cardiac, Duke has IBD so needs less fat and Rocky is senior with skin issues). I encourage you to talk to your vets and nutritionist at manufactures.


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The size of the Royal Canine Golden Retriever food was designed to force the dog to chew and show down eating. This keeps the dog from inhaling the food to fast cause the dog to gulp air, leading to bloat and gastric torsion. There byproduct of this is better dental with the extra chewing.

You should see their giant breed kibble, they are like oversized Domino pieces, squared off rectangles.
 

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The FDA and UC Davis in July, 2018 published warnings about a correlation between legumes and Cardiomyopathy in Golden Retrievers. It is not the absence of grains per se, it is the use of legumes, especially peas and pea protein, as a starch to hold the kibble together and as a protein source. Those 30/20 working dog kibbles (Sport) are one of the only commercially available brands that do not use any legumes. But they are high in carbohydrates, as is most commercial kibble.
 
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