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aka Shelby
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Now that makes sense to me! That is the perfect way to ensure a refusal because this dog would do anything for a bird.

I've already started CC and it is going too easily. He doesn't care yet he seems to get it.
He is just too biddable for me sometimes. I know that sounds odd but when they do everything you ask its hard to correct. And the things he doesn't do right, it is more that he doesn't understand then blatantly refuse me, and I won't use pressure for that.
 

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aka Shelby
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Poppy well, for me, the trainer I was working with for a while wouldn't put a collar on my dog. He said that she was 'too soft.' So I didn't have any other way to correct at the time. I didn't ear pinch I ear canal squeeze as that is how he taught me to do it.
 

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aka Shelby
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poppy do you do hunt tests or field trials? You haven't FF'd your dog? I don't care either way, there are lots of different ways people do things and honestly I don't judge. If the dog excels then obviously that method worked for that particular dog.Dogs are all different as this is my third dog and he is so incredibly different than my other two that I've trained him a lot differently.
 

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MOP,
What was gained by going out and pinching the dogs ear that could not have been delt with from the line with the collar?
the understanding of collar pressure in the field. FF is done in a controlled environment now you have to bring it to the field with everything else we have conditioned with the collar again in a controlled environment. also normally this is with a dog that is just coming out of walking fetch and just starting to see marks again. normally it starts off with a couple of FETCH nick FETCH if that doesnt work you simplify by ear pinching to the bird and walking at heel all the way back to the line rethrow the mark. and from what i have seen normally takes 1 maybe 2 times for a dog to do that and it never happens again.
 

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This is my third dog, all have been trained to hunt upland. I did dabble in hunt tests with my current dog of 5yrs old. We got to Master level without blinking a eye. I find ht tests to be a bit of a joke!

Your right though, every dog is different and learning that says your well on your way to becoming a Good Handler. Being able to read the dog infront of you is priceless :)
 

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the party's crashing us
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Hi Poppy you must be new here :)
Tell us about yourself!!
 

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I never really bought in to FF. I studied it and the theory, but still made no sense to me.

we can use the collar to teach(Hold,Nick) when the dog drops something anywhere at any time.

I have now gotten to the same place FF people have gotten to without the fuss of FF.
I would consider using the collar to enforce retrieving to be using a form of force fetch.
 
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gdgli,

I think your thoughts on FF are similar to how I see it. Its kind of a hot topic, as evidenced by 4 pages of posts on a topic that was started this morning.

I will start by saying I have only FF 2 dogs so I do not have a great deal of experience in it. That being said, during the process I would check in with a pro to make sure I wasn't missing anything. I felt it was beneficial to have someone who is experienced monitor my progress. When it was done I found that it wasn't as big a deal as I thought. This past winter I went through it my second time, again checking in with a pro to monitor my progress. I sometimes train around dogs that haven't been FF'd and there is quite a difference in their deliveries. I have been gunning or helping at hunt tests and seen dogs "blink" on a bird due to condition of the bird, maybe it was hard hit or maybe it was at the end of a hot day and the bird had been retrieved several times and wasn't in the best of condition. This is not yet been a problem for my dogs and I have always thought it was probably due to making sure they were FF'd.
 

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KrazyBronco
I guess thats one way to train alot of nonsense into a dog.
you are going to have to back that statement up cause i do not see it as nonsense.

I want every tool in my tool box to help my dog succeed. yes i might be able to use a flat head screw driver on a phillips head screw and might even get the screw out but if i had a phillips head screw driver it would have been a lot easier. before collar conditioning i teach with a choker chain then a heeling stick then the collar because then i have a tool for every situation. i use a heeling stick to this day for line corrections and because my dog was taught with a heeling stick before the collar, understands every correction i give with a stick. Again i want every tool i can to help get the job done, might take a little extra time in the beginning but it works
 

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Discussion Starter #36
gdgli,

I think your thoughts on FF are similar to how I see it. Its kind of a hot topic, as evidenced by 4 pages of posts on a topic that was started this morning.

I will start by saying I have only FF 2 dogs so I do not have a great deal of experience in it. That being said, during the process I would check in with a pro to make sure I wasn't missing anything. I felt it was beneficial to have someone who is experienced monitor my progress. When it was done I found that it wasn't as big a deal as I thought. This past winter I went through it my second time, again checking in with a pro to monitor my progress. I sometimes train around dogs that haven't been FF'd and there is quite a difference in their deliveries. I have been gunning or helping at hunt tests and seen dogs "blink" on a bird due to condition of the bird, maybe it was hard hit or maybe it was at the end of a hot day and the bird had been retrieved several times and wasn't in the best of condition. This is not yet been a problem for my dogs and I have always thought it was probably due to making sure they were FF'd.
You are doing things right. And I have made the same observations as you.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
I hope that we keep this thread civil. I know it is a controversial topic but at the same time the way I train also raises controversy. I just wanted to talk a bit about my ideas since I am at the FF point right now.
 

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I hope that we keep this thread civil. I know it is a controversial topic but at the same time the way I train also raises controversy. I just wanted to talk a bit about my ideas since I am at the FF point right now.
if i have gotten a little more than civil please let me know and if you want we can take it to the private message. I feel very strongly about my opinions of training a dog just ask Millions of Peaches.
 

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Louisiana
You are 100% correct!
The collar is a form of pressure and the dog learns it early on in his life. I find absolutely no ;-) reason to pinch a dogs ear to get compliance. The collar will be your "Go to" in the field, correct?

FF invovles alot of unnecessary teaching!
Picking up different objects from the table. Walking fetch and even the word fetch itself it just plan a waste of time.

Sit means sit
Here means here
Heel meam heel
HOLD MEANS HOLD,PERIOD!

This is all obtainable with just the use of the collar. If you feel the need to complicate matter, don't let me stand in your way ;-)
 

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if i have gotten a little more than civil please let me know and if you want we can take it to the private message. I feel very strongly about my opinions of training a dog just ask Millions of Peaches.
PM sent, take a look.
 
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