[Megora]

Other breeds still have it worse....

We own goldens because know their health problems, have experienced the WORST of them, and generally know we can handle them.

Other breeds....

Before I got Bertle, I interviewed a lab breeder and a ESS breeder. Both people were impressive and the kindest, nicest, types - and very definitely I would have loved having a breeder-owner relationship with them. But they did not try hiding their own concerns about their breeds.

With the labs - they have that EIC issue. And then ESS's - the rage issue is a very real problem and generally is believed to be a form of epilepsy.

I love springers and really was impressed with a puppy from that specific breeder (2 years old and already close to her CDX), but it was a scary thing going into a different breed and starting fresh with all new health issues that you've never experienced before.

 

[Megora]

I wonder, if someone outcrossed to a dog with an incredible immune system and then started breeding back to Goldens, keeping only the pups with the incredible immune systems, how many generations it would be before the AKC would consider registering a litter as Golden Retrievers.

Random morning thought.

I think rather than introducing a new breed into the breeding pool (remember that all breeds, including mixes have their inherent issues common to all large breeds) and risking undesired results (mixed bag breedings), why not look more into breeding to those dogs who lack conformation, but have the health factor?

I was eavesdropping on a discussion a while back on clearances - and there are breeders out there who feel that by removing so many dogs from the breeding pool because of failed clearances and adding yet more (more emphasis on eye clearances, etc), that it will do more harm than good to the breed. And this opinion was coming from very solid breeders who are very active in the breed.

Eavesdropping on that discussion - I admittedly was feeling upset because I know one of those clearances that people regard as optional - particularly because of the lack of clarity as far as what the OFA is looking at - are elbow clearances.

More than one breeder here in Michigan - who I would absolutely regard highly and otherwise recommend to anyone, they have bred dogs with elbow dysplasia.

At the time I felt (and still vaguely do) that when it comes to choosing between health and conformation, that too many breeders will choose to breed a dog with a failed elbow over a dog with a curly coat or gay tail or some other aesthetic trait that they do not want in their breeding program.

 

[Megora]

Honestly I rather get a puppy from a backyard home breeder then a reputable breeder as the chances of dysplasia based on my own experience are less likely.

1. Puppies from breeders doing full clearances are less likely to have the more severe cases of elbow and hip dysplasia. <- Elbow dysplasia is a big concern for me, particularly since my Danny had a very bad case. There are several grades of elbow dysplasia. He had the worst kind, both elbows. All that in addition to pano. I could not necessarily blame the breeder for that since he had been born around that time where people were just starting to talk more about elbow dysplasia being a hereditary condition and checking elbows was not the norm. FWIW - I do blame the breeder NOW since I know dogs from her have a history of elbow dysplasia and OCD in the shoulders. A lot of this is reflected on her not fully believing these issues are hereditary problems.

2. Puppies from breeders who do not do clearances are not necessarily healthier on that basis - especially if those breeders participate in no activities where soundness is huge. Poor elbows and hips are the end of the road if you are interested in going beyond the backyard with your dog.

3. In the cases of backyard breeders too, you have more cases of other conditions showing up since you have people breeding what they have as opposed to breeding only to improve the breed. That's dogs with cataracts being bred. That's dogs with renal dysplasia or similar conditions being bred.

**** I felt this was very important to say, because you always have a ton of people looking in and looking for encouragement to pay less (or nothing) for the backyard bred dog. Even to the point of trying to make believe these dogs are better bred than those who were very selectively bred.

*** One interesting thing I got to add is I know somebody who routinely scopes other lines, even seeking out breeding dogs from Sweden. The very worst litter she ever had was from one of these breedings. The puppies were born with messed up hips and elbows - and were put to sleep. <- That rang a bell with me, because of course Danny had littermates put to sleep because of hips and elbows all being bad.

 

[Megora]

Clever Megora, but that stands the same with many of the reputable breeders who still produce puppies with elbow and hip dysplasia despite all the hard work and clearances they do.
We have seen many of them on this forum alone. We have seen puppies die shortly after birth. In fact our own well bred golden did not make it much into the backyard due to health problems.

Claudia, this is not me trying to be clever. I'm speaking the earnest truth as somebody who has been very involved with the breed since I was 11 years old. I'm much older now and my spare time through those years involved learning more about this breed. I remember crying to my mom and telling her I wanted to learn more about why these things happen to these dogs and stop them.

Elbow and hip dysplasia does occur still in really nicely bred dogs, but look at the grade and the need for surgery. That is what you need to look at to decide whether the clearances and the drive to breed severe cases of elbow dysplasia and hip dysplasia out of these breeds has done any good.

I have a golden with bilateral hip dysplasia and he (knock on wood) had been a very sound and solid dog. He had an injury 5 months ago with Bertie flipping him and messing up his back and pelvis and it's been a slow recovery since then, but his hips are not that much changed from what they were when he was 2 years old and got that mild dysplasia grade. This is a dog who is jumping in obedience and running through fields and swimming full force in summer, and flying through the snow in winter. And he still has beautiful movement - even with his injury.

If I were some hayseed who were into breeding dogs based on their agility and appearance - without doing clearances.... I would be doing a disservice to the breed by breeding a dog with bilateral hip dysplasia.

And you realize that if I had not done xrays at 2 because of the performance aspect of his life and making sure I knew what I had, I'm sure I would be bragging to everyone about what great hips he has based on what I have seen this whole time.

That's the type of issue I have with backyard breeders who do no clearances or who breed dogs with spotty clearance histories.

My gut feeling is that you are taking the wrong turn as far as improving the breed if you are breeding a dog who was likely born with malformed hip sockets or whatever other condition that caused the dysplasia.

As far as the abilities of these dogs to do field work - you need to surround yourself with people who are out there in the field with their goldens who have both their conformation champion titles and are also master hunters. You can look at the golden who is tops in the breed right now - and she's done it in conformation and is getting into field and obedience. These are "idols" for the breed and I think a lot of the time what sets these dogs apart are the owners putting the training and work into titling these dogs. You can't win field or obedience titles on a "instinct" alone. You have to work with these dogs and shape them into working dogs.

Even flat coated retrievers being a well-rounded breed - as far titling high in obedience and field in addition to conformation - they need a lot of training and active work on the part of their owners. And they don't always get to the highest levels because of handler error in training the dogs early on, or just the temperament of the dogs making it unlikely that they can handle the more difficult tests at the MH level, etc.

Even with conformation - I showed my little guy this past weekend (and had a ball). The dogs all pretty much looked similar to him, except a bit fluffier as I am not the best groomer just yet (LOL). My little one was the only one in the ring who had flip-flips around his bum. I'm very sorry that you don't think the dogs like him look like golden retrievers.

 

[Megora]

What about enlarging the gene pool? One of the things I've daydreamed about is the notion of adding a BYB dog as a stud. Yes, it's risky. But suppose one found a nice BYB dog with at least some of the pedigree known. And what if the breeder offered to pay for (yeah, this is where a lot of you check out, I know

) testing for the dog in lieu of a stud fee? And what if that dog passes clearances?

But again, the issue is that while the stud dog may pass clearances - do you know what is behind him? What if his parents or grandparents were dysplastic, had cataracts, etc...?

 

[Megora]

Claudia, try to keep in mind a lot of people are very active at dog clubs and very welcoming of all puppy people that come in through the doors and take classes with their pups - regardless of the dogs' backgrounds.

I believe the local breeders have been huge in getting the information out to people about clearances - especially getting the eyes checked every year. The golden retriever club supported eye clinics over here have been hugely attended by all kinds of people.

That is not the same as encouraging people who are thinking about breeding their dogs because they are pretty or are nice dogs. You have a lot of people who walk up to anyone with a pretty dog and are asking about puppies. <- I've had those questions and generally am very quick to edu-ma-cate people about why I would not breed Jacks, for example.

This included a breeder who was besotted with Jacks - who despite his "ooh thunderstorm" issues has the look, temperament, and drive that has had a lot of people turning their heads and watching him.

With these people, I've generally immediately disclosed his hip dysplasia, thyroid problem, tail kink, and noise phobia issues - each of which on their own would be solid reasons not to breed him. Also, while he's gotten his eye cerfs every year without a bad mark on them - I know his eye-lids are too loose and expose the eyes to irritants.

You have to be very critical of what is breed standard and what is ideal for the breed. Even with Bertie, I'm not committed to breeding him after he gets titles and clearances (which will happen). And he's a boy and there's really very limited physical risk to him as far as using him for breeding. It's all behavioral stuff I'm concerned about. It's nice having dogs who don't have a clue.

With females - the issue is you are putting your dog's life in danger. And there better be a good doggone reason to do so. Your dog should be outstanding, or her background should totally be speaking.

You've watched the puppy inquiry threads on this forum, right? People are bringing up the dog's clearances on offa.org and looking much further back than parents. You have 5 or more generations that people are going to scrutinize. <- I did it myself when I was looking for a puppy the last 2-3 years.

The exceptions to that would be a dog who has all her clearances, and she has shown herself to be outstanding as a performance dog. Meaning the owner is very active and not only belongs to the local clubs, but is loading title after title on that dog before they breed her.

That is not the same thing as a backyard breeder or somebody breeding a backyard bred dog.

That is hugely different that breeding a nice looking dog with a sweet temperament - who shows potential, but has not proven anything.

 

[Megora]

What makes a breeder a "backyard breeder" by the way? They don't do any tests, and just sell the puppies?

Ma and Pop types breeding their dogs to a friend's dogs to make puppies.

Hobby breeders are those who generally belong to the local clubs and participate in competitive events with their dogs. Reputable breeders among them are getting full clearances on these dogs and not just breeding everything they get their hands on.

Commercial breeders are those who do all the clearances and pick and choose which dogs they breed to or with, but they are primarily breeders. They may participate in events, but generally have puppies every season and generally may have 2 litters per season. My Jacks came from one of those. These are not puppy mills, as the dogs generally receive quality care, training, and love and are retired to pet homes by the time they are 3-4 years old.

Puppy mills - are those commercial breeders who basically do nothing but breed the dogs, and generally with little regard to the dogs needs and care. There is a show breeder here in Michigan who similar to her mentor has a kinda reputation of being a puppy mill. This because they have a ton of dogs who receive very little care and attention outside of when they are being shown or bred. The mentor has the dogs in two houses, I suspect to avoid the accusation of being a hoarder. Last I heard - she had over 40 dogs.

 

[Megora]

Jill - who is the cute snow flyer?