Golden Retriever Dog Forums banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
783 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Good morning :wavey:,
We are having escalating issues with Amber (4 1/2 mo. GR) and Piper (2 yr. old Papillon). Amber and Piper are having major issues with possession of toys, couches, balls, etc. Occasionally, they will play for a minute, then the issues of snarkiness, teeth showing and yiping occur. The scenario goes like this: Piper is playing with a toy (big basket of toys available to both dogs), Amber runs over to take Piper's toy away, Piper yips and runs under table. Or Amber lays down on floor in the "let's play" stance. Piper comes over and wags tail to play, they play for a few seconds, then Amber bulldozes Piper, Piper yips, tail down runs away. Another, Piper and I are laying on the couch, Amber walks over to see what it going on, Piper is very possessive, starts yipping, escalates with Amber and Piper both showing teeth.

So, we have numerous avenues to help them play together, including separate playtime, redirecting, putting most toys away, and having a consultation with a respected dog trainer in our home so that she could observe. She understands the situation and that Amber's behavior is normal for a puppy her age. The dog trainer said that we need to catch Piper's dominant posture before anything happens and redirect, tell her to quit and redirect Amber at the same time. Needless to say, we have been following her directions to a 'T' and are exhausted. Piper is visibly upset at having her body nudged and her toys taken and chewed up. We are exhausted with trying to assist both.

Any suggestions with transitioning an established small dog with a 'puppy-stupid" wonderful GR pup would be much appreciated! Photo of Piper attached.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,107 Posts
This must be a trait of papillions. When I lived with a papillion, that dog was always stealing Flora's toys and barking at any other dog that had her toy. She was very very dominant and was definitely top dog. Fortunately, Flora is such a weenie that she always submitted to Charley and it was never a problem. Still, in order to make both dogs happy, I would always make sure to have two toys on hand - one toy for Charley (the papillion) and one toy for Flora. When Charley started harrassing Flora for her toy, I would pull out Charley's toy and start squeaking it and making it very desirable to her.

It didn't solve things completely - I think Charley just liked having the toys that other dogs were interested in - but it did help.

I can't tell you how many of Flora's toys were stolen from my room by that sneaky papillion and claimed as her own.

Good luck!

Piper is cute, btw! Papillions seem like such great little dogs if they're trained right. And SUPER smart!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
783 Posts
Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
kdmarsh :wavey:,

Thanks for your response. Actually, the original toys belong to Piper (Papillon) and Amber (GR) is the thief ;). Since Piper's toys are relatively small, we bought a good amount of large toys for Amber. Yes, Piper is VERY dominant. I can understand in some ways why Piper is upset, BIG DOZER arrives and steals toys/bones, chases her and slimes everything! Piper was the 'perfect' dog. Sweet, intelligent, playful, lively.....until new BIG little sis arrives.

Some dog folks that have been to our house say not to worry, that Piper will teach Amber some manners and Amber will eventually leave her alone. The dog trainer feels that Piper's snarkiness may cause Amber (GR pup) to become aggressive. We are quite upset with this information and are trying to do everything in our power to avoid :--sad:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,950 Posts
I've been having similar issues at my house between my Cavalier KC Spaniel and Tucker, my 5 month GR. It sounds like the dynamics are a bit different though because both my dogs are sort of "zeta" (opposite of alpha :D ).

My problem was that Tucker would try to rough-house with Tess. He was jumping her, etc. She was telling him to back off but he wouldn't. He just didn't get that she's older. He was being a puppy.

I wanted them to sort it out themselves but finally intervened b/c Tess has bad hips, etc., and I didn't want her hurt. So I instituted a three-step intervention program. I would step between them and say "no!" loudly. If it didn't stop, next I'd use the squirt bottle on the aggressor (sometimes it was Tess...). If that didn't work, I'd give a time out (usually Tucker) by pinning the dog behind me (back turned) and between the wall and a chair for about 30 seconds to a minute. It has worked very well -- Tucker almost never jumps her anymore. They do play tug-of-war together and have a good time. And they do get jealous over each other's toys and treats even though they have the same ones. Often one will wait for the other to drop something, run in and scoop it up while the "loser" heads into the other room to get what the "winner" has left behind. ;)

All told, we are all getting along pretty well these days. :crossfing
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,107 Posts
Does Piper have a crate that you could put somewhere so she could go into it when she's feeling overwhelmed by Amber? Maybe you could put it up on a small table or something out of Amber's reach. I know Papillions can jump. ;)

Otherwise, perhaps when Amber is really pestering Piper you can just give Amber a time out by putting her outside (we would do that with Charley sometimes when she was just constantly pestering Flora and the other dog) for 5 minutes or so.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
783 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
@OutWest - Yes, those are the same issues that we are dealing with. The physical issues concern us also as we have an 8 lb, 15 year old senior. LilBit justs grumbles and for the most part Amber leaves her alone or jumps over her:bowl:. Occasionally, they will lay close to each other with a toy, but invariably Amber will come over and push Piper to drop her toy and Amber trots away with both :doh:. The most upsetting is when Amber comes up to the couch/bed and Piper really yipes and snarls. Someone said "Oh, that is how my pups play." I will intervene following your recommendations. Thanks.
@kdmarsh - Piper has the back of the couch and our bed to flee to, as well as, her crate. Amber's new trick is jumping up on our bed when we leave the room. I will try the short timeout with Amber. We have just resolved to watching TV in different room at night from 8:00 - 9:00 for a little break before bedtime.
Oh, BTW, Amber's accidents were due to a UTI as you suggested. She has been on Clavamox for 5 days and the accidents have stopped. Thank you :wave:.
 

·
Dr. Rainheart
Joined
·
5,563 Posts
I'm not sure if this will help, but maybe you can take all the toys up and only let them play when you can supervise?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,107 Posts
@OutWest - Yes, those are the same issues that we are dealing with. The physical issues concern us also as we have an 8 lb, 15 year old senior. LilBit justs grumbles and for the most part Amber leaves her alone or jumps over her:bowl:. Occasionally, they will lay close to each other with a toy, but invariably Amber will come over and push Piper to drop her toy and Amber trots away with both :doh:. The most upsetting is when Amber comes up to the couch/bed and Piper really yipes and snarls. Someone said "Oh, that is how my pups play." I will intervene following your recommendations. Thanks.
@kdmarsh - Piper has the back of the couch and our bed to flee to, as well as, her crate. Amber's new trick is jumping up on our bed when we leave the room. I will try the short timeout with Amber. We have just resolved to watching TV in different room at night from 8:00 - 9:00 for a little break before bedtime.
Oh, BTW, Amber's accidents were due to a UTI as you suggested. She has been on Clavamox for 5 days and the accidents have stopped. Thank you :wave:.

Yes... it is hard keeping the dog off of the bed. Every time I come home from work I can always tell where Flora's been sleeping from the rumpled up blanket on my bed. :bowl:

Aw, poor Amber. UTIs are a pain, I'm glad you got her treated for it. Clavamox is a gem of a pill!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,299 Posts
I'm not but if I were you I would not have toys out unsupervised and I would make sure the pup does not steal the toys. It is unfair to the other. If you need to seperate them with gates when they have toys do so. But you are not taking the role of the leader and so they now will need to make their own rules and as the GR gets older and bigger it will get worst. You need to intervene when the pup goes for the toy so the older dog doesn't feel she has to. At least that is what I would do and if you can't, do not leave toys out.
 

·
Inactive
Joined
·
4,512 Posts
I agree with Angelina--do not let the puppy take toys from Piper. Also, I would not allow them to have any toys unsupervised. When they do have toys make sure there are an abundance of toys and monitor carefully.
 

·
Dog Lover
Joined
·
42,038 Posts
Pappillon

I agree, I would supervise them with their toys!
 

·
Kye & Coops Mom
Joined
·
4,466 Posts
I have Biewer yorkies and now the 2 goldens, and anticipated a lot of problems until the goldens got over their puppyhood, but honestly they have sorted it out themselves. We had a definate pack order established before the pups came. It is amazing to me to watch the pups come barreling in from outside and our alpha male get right in the face. He just STARES at them, will even stand and put his paws on Kye's face and looks her right in the eye. Crazyness stops, dogs settle. He doesn't allow them on the couch nor in our bed. Amazing how they know when it is a no-no and back down. He is also the one who will try to play tug-o-war with the toys with them and they pull him all over the den. The big toys are theirs, the small toys belong to him and the others. Funny to see them with their approp. toys all waiting to have me throw.

With our 14 yr old Eng. Toy Spaniel Millie, I have to really watch. Coop thinks she is his best friend. Millie is almost blind and doesn't see him coming. She has never been crate trained, so I have had to resort to a time out for Coop in his crate until he gets refocused and can be let out, but she has no defense for his puppy ways.

I would let Tess have her own things and if it gets too much, move one to a safe area or crate the culprit until they quiet.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Amberbark

·
Banned
Joined
·
38 Posts
We're also dealing with a similar situation with our 4 1/2 mo. golden and a 12 yr old basset. Oliver (golden) is getting really obnoxious about never letting our old basset just sniff around the yard--continually pouncing at her, little nips, pressing her buttons. Our basset has started barking at him, which absolutely delights him 'Game on' in his puppy brain. It escalates and has gotten out of hand, with our basset starting hysterical barking as soon as Oliver is anywhere near her outside--which sets him off, an endless annoying cycle which HE loves, and she (and I) detest! I've been saying NO and stepping between them, and yes, it is exhausting constantly trying to referee the two! I also worry that because our basset is reacting aggressively (not to blame her, she feels vulnerable as she is old and not very agile anymore) that he could learn to be aggressive with other dogs--he's starting to at times react with a bit more nastiness than playfulness in his attitude when she snarks at him. Constant supervision is necessary--as well as making sure I never run out of wine....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,645 Posts
"Another, Piper and I are laying on the couch, Amber walks over to see what it going on, Piper is very possessive, starts yipping, escalates with Amber and Piper both showing teeth."

I am guessing that Piper is resource guarding both you and the couch. I would address this by only snuggling on the couch with Piper when Amber is busy in the crate with a really good bone/toy/kong. I wouldn't want Piper to continue with this habit.
Either they both get to snuggle with you or no one gets to snuggle with you unless you give the other dog something great to do somewhere else.

The other stuff really is just letting them work it out (within reason), prevention and management. Young puppies really don't need a lot of freedom in the home unless supervised. X-pens and baby gates are our friends. :) That doesn't mean we just put them behind the fencing for the day. They need a lot of interaction with you and the enviroment they are going to live in (lots of training and play time) but controlled. Even though Piper is older she has to learn different house rules to make everything run smoothly in your home so she may need to have her house manners slightly adjusted too. Lots of separate individual training and play with very controlled together time.


And when bringing in a pup into a home with an existing dog you need to give yourself time for You. I would think trying to work with the existing dog and a new pup and be physically and mentally exhausting (major burnout) so definately You time. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
783 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Good morning :wavey:,
Thank you for all of the great suggestions! We will work with Piper and Amber taking into consideration separate time and working with both. Resource guarding is exactly what the dog trainer mentioned when I had her out for an evaluation. My husband bought Amber a new rubber ball yesterday and low and behold, she has been carrying it around, bouncing it and catching it since yesterday night. Hooray!, if only for a short time. I started Piper in Novice Agility last night and the trainer said that she is a "Super Star" completing the obstacle course (on lead) with no problem. The trainer said that I will just need to learn to jog faster. Amber started in Puppy Classes 4 to 7 mos. last week, so she has daily training sessions to keep her busy. Additionally, Amber is teething, so we are definitely taking that into consideration also. Thanks again for all of your great recommendations (including the wine). Would love to meet up with anyone from the Los Angeles (Antelope Valley) or Kern County (Bakersfield) areas!:D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,107 Posts
This thread has totally been on my mind now because it keeps reminding me of my old roommates' papillon. That dog was a pain in the butt (not her fault, her momma never trained her) but I really really liked her. Do you like the breed? Would you recommend them to other people? I'm in no position to get another dog, but maybe a papillon will be in my future years down the road...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
783 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
This thread has totally been on my mind now because it keeps reminding me of my old roommates' papillon. That dog was a pain in the butt (not her fault, her momma never trained her) but I really really liked her. Do you like the breed? Would you recommend them to other people? I'm in no position to get another dog, but maybe a papillon will be in my future years down the road...
Love, love, love the breed! I have always had sporting dogs (e.g., Irish setters), but wanted to acquire a smaller dog as a buddy for our now-senior LilBit. I researched for a couple of years and the Papillon's description fit the bill. Then waited to find a well-bred litter. I happened upon her after changing my vet's appointment for a senior check for LilBit and what do I see, a crate with 3 little Pap girls. I had talked with this breeder before, but hadn't touched base again. I was at their home within the hour to evaluate the 3 girls, deposit in pocket.

I love all of my dogs and Piper is ONE of my favorites :rolleyes:. Lively, low-maintenance, playful, sweet, devoted and lovely, she keeps us occupied with all of her antics. She has completed Advanced Obedience and CGC. I love her lots. P.S. LilBit just grumbled and never plays with her!
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top