[HopefulGoldenParents]

Hello all,

We are considering puppies across litters - all from the same (very reputable and highly regarded) breeder. The litter that we are leaning towards feature two beautiful parents - the sire being a champion and the dam being from a strong champion bloodline.

While both parents are cleared of eyes, heart, elbows, and hips, there are a couple of asterisks: (1) the dam has a "fair" OFA hip grade - which is strange considering her parents and grandparents were all graded good or excellent and (2) the sire has a "DJD 1" elbow grade, and was noted to be an ICT carrier in the paws.

The parents of the other litters do not present these asterisks - but also didn't turn our heads the way this litter did.

We would be grateful for your advice on whether these notes above warrant a pause.

Thank you,
HopefulGoldenParents

 

[HopefulGoldenParents]

(2) the sire has a "DJD 1" elbow grade, and was noted to be an ICT carrier in the paws.

For reference, here are the Sire's data:

Pedigree: CanGCH Thornywait Paparazzi

k9data.com

Advanced Search | OFA

www.ofa.org

Thanks!

 

[LittleGoldenofthePrairie]

Maybe I’m crazy… but I honestly am not that bothered by the 1 elbow… I’m sure others will chime in though. Fair hips are still passing so that doesn’t make me bat an eye

 

[Tagrenine]

No, especially because the grandsire also has failed elbows

 

[LittleGoldenofthePrairie]

No, especially because the grandsire also has failed elbows

I don’t believe so… I looked back and no grand sire has failed elbows. Just foreign clearances… maybe you followed the wrong dog??

 

[LJack]

Fair hips are not almost Dysplastic, they are a normal hip score. Also, no it is not surprising to see fairs happen in a pedigree of goods and excellents.

 

[HopefulGoldenParents]

No, especially because the grandsire also has failed elbows

Thanks for pointing this out! I am most definitely still learning, but it seems that the Sire's Sire had 0/0 elbows. My understanding is that that's a clear, but is that not accurate? Thanks!

 

[LittleGoldenofthePrairie]

Thanks for pointing this out! I am most definitely still learning, but it seems that the Sire's Sire had 0/0 elbows. My understanding is that that's a clear, but is that not accurate? Thanks!

It’s accurate. I think she may have tapped on another dog someplace(I do it ALL the time). Personally it doesn’t bother me as I looked back multiple generations and found no evidence- I am new to this, but I think I did it correctly. I guess we will see if I’m wrong🤷🏼‍♀️

 

[LittleGoldenofthePrairie]

Might I add- this pedigree is GORGEOUS and man would I kill for a puppy!!(not really as I already have a handful🤣)

 

[HopefulGoldenParents]

Might I add- this pedigree is GORGEOUS and man would I kill for a puppy!!(not really as I already have a handful🤣)

Thanks very much for confirming re:elbow clearance in the pedigree. The Sire's side of the family do seem generally long-lived. And agreed that they are beautiful Goldens.

 

[HopefulGoldenParents]

Fair hips are not almost Dysplastic, they are a normal hip score. Also, no it is not surprising to see fairs happen in a pedigree of goods and excellents.

Thanks! This is good to know. Now I know it's more of an A vs B situation rather than an C- vs F situation.

 

[Megora]

Failed elbows is a no go for me.

If you look at the clearance history behind this dog, looks like his mom also failed elbows. Or was not tested - which is the same thing as failed. That's possibly what Tangerine meant?

looking at the pics - find it pretty interesting in one of them that the dog has a big red patch (like a rub spot or callus) on the failed elbow.

 

[LittleGoldenofthePrairie]

Failed elbows is a no go for me.

If you look at the clearance history behind this dog, looks like his mom also failed elbows. Or was not tested - which is the same thing as failed. That's possibly what Tangerine meant?

looking at the pics - find it pretty interesting in one of them that the dog has a big red patch (like a rub spot or callus) on the failed elbow.

Where’d you find that(the rub picture part)?! 2/5of my childhood lighter goldens growing up had reddish pink fur around their elbows and mouths and later we just found out it was from callous/slobber that could be washed out with tear stain removal😆

 

[Tagrenine]

Omg you’re right 😂 I was tired last night and was looking at the offspring. One of the offspring has a grand dam with failed elbows.

 

[Megora]

Omg you’re right 😂 I was tired last night and was looking at the offspring. One of the offspring has a grand dam with failed elbows.

Actually - if you glance through offspring, the impression you come away with is this breeder does not really take elbow dysplasia seriously. At all.

So the stud dog above has elbow dysplasia.

Bred to a girlie with no clearances at all. <= Which tells you that this breeder will let anyone use her stud dogs.

Produced a girlie who got her clearances (kept by owner of stud dog, I am assuming) - who was then bred to another boy with elbow dysplasia, and produced 2 offspring with elbow dysplasia.

Elbow dysplasia does not magically go away - especially if you keep breeding dogs with it.


Other thing, fwiw.... though this is not as concerning to me as the elbows and history of breeding dogs without full clearances. 10 for a combined score is the highest you can score and still get a "Good" on the hip. 11+ is fair. <= That is more information than we get with OFA and certainly would be a little extra to consider before breeding to a girlie who has fair hips?

 

[Hildae]

This would be a no for me.

 

[Sweet Girl]

I have a dog with DJD 1 and I personally would never breed her knowing that. She has never exhibited any pain, and I do a lot to keep it that way (she was evaluated by a sports medicine vet specialist upon diagnosis, she is on joint supplements, one med, and does weekly water treadmill therapy, along with lots of other activity, to keep her strong and fit). But she DOES have elbow dysplasia. I know that DJD 1 is sort of a point of debate, whether it really should be considered grade 1 dysplasia, but until there is science that says it is not, it is not something I would feel good about potentially reproducing in later pups. So this would be a no for me.

 

[PalouseDogs]

I generally don't comment on conformation litters. (Don't like what the conformation ring has done to dog breeds in general and especially goldens and labs in particular, but that's another topic.)

I had to comment on this one. Elbow dysplasia is a big problem in goldens. Some people consider it worse than hip dysplasia. I take some of those health screening results with a grain of salt, but not elbows. This breeding would be a hard no for me. Maybe, if you have absolutely no intention of breeding this pup, if the price is less outrageous than for most conformation-line pups, and you are desperate to find a pup with that conformation-line look... Otherwise, pass.

 

[Megora]

I generally don't comment on conformation litters. (Don't like what the conformation ring has done to dog breeds in general and especially goldens and labs in particular, but that's another topic.)

Without conformation, you lose type.

 

[HopefulGoldenParents]

Thank you all for the very informative discussion!