[myluckypenny]

The GRCA voted to modify the versatility chart (same point system is used for OS/OD awards):

• Added the Versatility Master title which you need 30 points to achieve
• Modified the Tracking category to include Scent Work titles
• Added some more Rally titles
• Removed the PAX title from the agility category
• Finally they modified how its presented in order to make the point system more clear (which was really needed)

If you are a GRCA member, the email you got his morning has a link to this scoreboard resolution.

Scoreboard for Res 22-78-Approve Revised VC-VCX - OS-OD Chart and Procedures

Thoughts on the changes?

 

[ArkansasGold]

I think RACH and UD should be worth more, but otherwise… it was about time they updated it! I think a Rally Master title is harder than CD but not as hard as CDX as far as actual training goes, but the shear number of legs needed should count for more IMO. RAE and RM both require 10 qualifying scores.

I don’t have thoughts on the field section because I don’t know enough about it. 😂 I do think it’s nice they added a third level and I wish they would implement levels for triathlon awards with a similar point schedule.

 

[myluckypenny]

I think RACH and UD should be worth more, but otherwise… it was about time they updated it! I think a Rally Master title is harder than CD but not as hard as CDX as far as actual training goes, but the shear number of legs needed should count for more IMO. RAE and RM both require 10 qualifying scores.

I don’t have thoughts on the field section because I don’t know enough about it. 😂 I do think it’s nice they added a third level and I wish they would implement levels for triathlon awards with a similar point schedule.

So I disagree on the number of legs needed to title being a factor in the point scale. Technically a person could enter one qual and walk away QAA. But that just means they have an extremely talented dog, not that the title is easily achievable.
I love the idea of different levels for the triathlon awards.

 

[myluckypenny]

For the field section - they left it the same and rejected the proposal to add upland titles to the chart.

 

[ArkansasGold]

So I disagree on the number of legs needed to title being a factor in the point scale. Technically a person could enter one qual and walk away QAA. But that just means they have an extremely talented dog, not that the title is easily achievable.
I love the idea of different levels for the triathlon awards.

I can understand that. If we go by actual difficulty, I would give RM 5 points instead of 4. That would be my only real change. RM has a version of command discrimination and a short go out. Where I could see the argument for it being a 4 point title is that not every judge uses those signs, but you still have to train for it just in case.

On the triathlon award, they could do Sprint, Olympic, and Iron Dog. 😂 I hate that someone can get a CCA, a Rally Novice leg, and a JH leg at a National or Regional Specialty and have the same bragging rights as someone that gets a JAM in breed, Q’s in an upper level OB or agility class (or gets a QQQ in Rally), and gets a Q in MH at the same specialty. Just as a made up example.

 

[myluckypenny]

I don't have an issue with anything but the agility column. I think all those titles should be bumped down one point. Maybe the tracking column too, although I don't know as much about those titles. But I think the OTCH should be a point higher than CT and MACH, but it definitely shouldn't be the same as FC/AFC. Nothing against agility or tracking but just think obedience should be weighted a little bit more.

 

[Megora]

I think RACH and UD should be worth more, but otherwise… it was about time they updated it! I think a Rally Master title is harder than CD but not as hard as CDX as far as actual training goes, but the shear number of legs needed should count for more IMO. RAE and RM both require 10 qualifying scores.

Not sure on that re rally master. I know people whose dogs are very good/steady in rally, but struggle (a lot!) with even getting a CD. Like literally NQ'ing on heeling alone. It's the communication/body language part which I think causes problems.

If I put my finger on the thing that bothers me re rally/obedience - I think the main thing is if rally were a separate category or split in the performance section (so obedience/rally/agility/tracking), I'd be like, yeah whatever wherever it is ranked. To a certain extent, that's how I see the point spread between OTCH/MACH/CT. It's is a very rare dog that is a CH in more than one sport - they either specialize in agility and dabble a little in obedience, or the other way around. Regarding those three titles - that is the top title you can get in those sports, so yeah put it up there.

The way the graph is presented, you are stating that a dog with rally titles is the same caliber dog as a dog with regular obedience titles - and that's not the case. The judging is different for rally. The rules are different...

 

[ArkansasGold]

Not sure on that re rally master. I know people whose dogs are very good/steady in rally, but struggle (a lot!) with even getting a CD. Like literally NQ'ing on heeling alone. It's the communication/body language part which I think causes problems.

Quite frankly, that is a crappy job on the trainer/handler and not a reflection of the difficulty of the titles. Having put both of those titles on a dog, Rally Master requires many more skills to be trained than CD.

The way the graph is presented, you are stating that a dog with rally titles is the same caliber dog as a dog with regular obedience titles - and that's not the case. The judging is different for rally. The rules are different...

I genuinely don’t understand how you think Rally and Obedience are being equated on that chart. Literally the highest level of Rally is even with the lowest level of Obedience on the chart (not including BN).

I did NOT intend to start a debate on Rally vs Obedience. So let’s just leave the chart as is. Not worth arguing over one point.

 

[hotel4dogs]

Hmmmm, Tito would have 43 points. Wonder if they'll award the VCM posthumously?

 

[myluckypenny]

Hmmmm, Tito would have 43 points. Wonder if they'll award the VCM posthumously?

There's a note in there about that, so it might be possible based on when he earned that title!

 

[Megora]

Quite frankly, that is a crappy job on the trainer/handler and not a reflection of the difficulty of the titles. Having put both of those titles on a dog, Rally Master requires many more skills to be trained than CD.

Yes, but at what level? And judged/scoring how?

There's a lot of people getting 100 scores on dogs at high levels in rally whose dogs shut down going for CD because they do not have the same handling/maneuvering in regular obedience.

If you put that in a separate column and just said as many who do rally say that rally is not regular obedience and shouldn't be compared directly, that actually works for me.

Take the titles from the agility column - I don't debate how a MX is the same number of points as a CH. I mean I don't know what a MX title is or why it's worth more than a UD - but it's not a problem in my brain because it's a different sport.

Rally was supposed to be an intro to regular obedience, and or a retirement sport for the dogs who physically couldn't go past CD level. That's why the jumps are low, and whatnot. The creation of the RM and RACH came about as many competitors in rally really made a point of demanding more in their sport, more recognition for what their dogs can do, etc. And to me, that's fine.

Meanwhile many people who have RM's on their dogs or are working on RACH's - I think they deserve recognition for what they do, vs having people asking them why they don't even have CD's on their dogs. A friend of mine deals with those questions and it's really tough because in one ring her dog is awesomeness itself. He responds to everything in rally in a great way... but CD level is very hard and she's basically given up trying after a number of NQ's. And to me, it's fine. It is a very different sport right now in some ways.

I genuinely don’t understand how you think Rally and Obedience are being equated on that chart. Literally the highest level of Rally is even with the lowest level of Obedience on the chart (not including BN).

RACH is ranked between a UD and CDX on the scoring chart above.

 

[PalouseDogs]

It's a sensitive topic for the Rally only crowd, but I would have ranked a RACH lower than a CDX. A RACH is essentially an RM done fairly well and repeated many times.

I consider a CD somewhat harder than an RM because of the length of time the dog has to remain focused in the ring, but the most difficult part of both titles is the off-leash heeling. For a CD, you have to successfully do off-leash heeling 3 times; for an RM, you have to do off-leash heeling 10 times, so, while the heeling in RM is easier in many ways, the dog does have to do it more often in a show setting. So, it's reasonable to treat them as approximately equal.

I think I'd quibble a bit on ranking the Preferred agility titles a point lower than the equivalent non-preferred. If we were talking about border collies, fine. Goldens, however, are right at the high end of dog size and weight to safely do agility. A lot of golden owners won't even consider regular height, even if their dog is an excellent jumper. It's too much jumping for dogs that big. My 24" youngster is a fit, muscular, excellent jumper. I will never show him in agility at 24".

Think I would have broken out the FC/AFC on points, like in conformation. The competition at field trials from labs is so overwhelming, that a golden taking even a 4th place (1/2 point?) is outstanding.

 

[NicoleGold]

I would LOVE to see the triathlon award revised to reflect this!!!! Other breed clubs have various levels (bronze, silver, gold, platinum) of triathlon awards that they give out at their National, and I have always wished the GRCA would do the same.

 

[NicoleGold]

I disagree that agility preferred titles should be worth the same as regular - you get a longer course time so you earn more points, and therefore can earn a PACH faster/easier than a MACH.

As for the comment that the agility column be worth less, I disagree. BUT I would be in favor for requiring both the standard and JWW titles to be needed to get the required points. So a dog would need both a NAJ and NA to get 3 and both a MX and MXJ to get 9. As it stands now, someone could never teach their dog contacts and only run JWW courses and end up with 9 points after earning a MXJ having never run standard, and that seems silly….

 

[myluckypenny]

As for the comment that the agility column be worth less, I disagree. BUT I would be in favor for requiring both the standard and JWW titles to be needed to get the required points. So a dog would need both a NAJ and NA to get 3 and both a MX and MXJ to get 9. As it stands now, someone could never teach their dog contacts and only run JWW courses and end up with 9 points after earning a MXJ having never run standard, and that seems silly….

I like that. When I looked into the scent work titles that's how they work. So you can get individuals titles for each category (Container, Interior, Exterior, Buried) but to earn the overall Novice, Advanced, Excellent, or Master titles (like what's in the chart) you have to have all four. AKC needs to add those titles in Agility, clean up the alphabet soup that agility dogs have lol.

I actually changed my mind on lowering agility, I think we should actually make it a 14 point scale. The only reason I think OTCH should be a little bit higher is because it's not a naturally rewarding sport for dogs. Also All Age points deserve their own category!

 

[myluckypenny]

I question whether RA or RE should be on the chart ONLY because you can get those exact titles virtually. I wish AKC differentiated their virtual rally titles like they do obedience.

 

[Megora]

I question whether RA or RE should be on the chart ONLY because you can get those exact titles virtually. I wish AKC differentiated their virtual rally titles like they do obedience.

Absolutely!

 

[Hildae]

The only change I'd make is bumping TD and TDU up to 5 and SWE to 4.

 

[Oceanside]

The only change I'd make is bumping TD and TDU up to 5 and SWE to 4.

Do you think a TD is more challenging than a JH? Honest question - I’ve never done either, but interested. TD has been a 4 as long as I’ve known.

 

[Hildae]

Do you think a TD is more challenging than a JH? Honest question - I’ve never done either, but interested. TD has been a 4 as long as I’ve known.

Yes I do. The JH is a great starter title that people should be proud of, but it is generally achievable by just about any retriever with a little work simply by virtue of just being born a retriever. TD has a much lower passing rate than JH does, and is a more complicated skill to learn for a retriever IMO.