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Hello All,
We are preparing for our puppy to arrive on August 10th and reading alot about different training methods. We are outdoors people and intend for our dog to accompany us on all outdoor activities. From swimming, running, hiking, the soccer field, etc. etc.
I have come across the remote collars and find them very appealing.

the theory in my mind for the 4 settings on the remote would be...

Audible beep: associate this with "come". if she is across the soccer field, instead of screaming "paisley, come" at the top of lungs from 100 yards away. Simply beeping the collar would signal her to return to us

Vibrate: this would be used if the beep for come is ignored or for a very mild correction for a behavior

Pulse: this would be for a correction to an undesirable behavior, digging up the flower beds, getting into a garbage can acorss the field, chasing a squirl toward a street, etc.

Continuous: i dont want to ever have to "continuously correct" our dog so this would not be used.

The aspect i like is that the dog associates the behviour with an immediate correction. If the dog is 100 yards away and starts sniffing around a picnic basket or eating someones sandwhich, me running 100 yards saying "Paisley NO" i feel is not going to be productive and she will not associate that action directly with my running and saying no....it would be more a miscue of fun. Oh look Matt is running at me waving his arms...time to play...and the whole misbehaviour of checking out a sandwhich will be missed.

So..as always....all opinions are very helpful..please share your thoughts.

Also....suggested training schedules and methods for the remote training

M&R
Paisley's Parents
 

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I shoot, they fetch.
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A collar can be a very valuable tool. Be warned that you will get some strong anti-collar reactions, so be prepared for that (both in public and in parts of this forum). I personally find it very useful in off-lead situations, and I do use mine for training for advanced fieldwork and hunting skills. I pretty much never use the tone function on mine, and my Tritronics does not have a vibrate feature. I have a Tritronics Pro 100 which has both momentary and continuous capabilities, and mostly leave it on continuous but deliver a momentary by just tapping the button. There are times I will use continuous on a longer stimulation, but tend to do that at a lower intensity. It is very situational.

In a field context we use the collar to reinforce known commands--which means you still have to teach all of the obedience skills to a fairly high competancy. There are a couple of approaches to the use of the collar among field people. Some follow the Bill Hillman method where it is introduced prior to the start of formal basics (3-4 months old, and forward), and others collar condition after hold and FF work are done (after about 6 months old). There are obedience trainers who use it for obedience work as well, but I am not as familiar with how they use it. Best advice I can give is to not try to collar condition your first dog on your own. Find a mentor who has done collar work before and whose dogs react to the collar in a happy way--the dogs should not be cowering if if CC has been done properly.

Bill Hillman does have a puppy training video that is very good, but again, in person mentorship is the best for learning fair and effective use of this tool. It is not really something you can learn by watching a video, or having someone lay out a sries of steps online, because you can not really be certain that the timing and reactions they are describing are what you are seeing to know if you are doing it right.

There are a number of brands now on the market--do not waste your money on the cheap ones--they are not very reliable. Tritronics and Dogtra are pretty much the industry standard for a reason. They are about the only brands you will find pro trainers and serious amateur trainers using.
 

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The beep is very helpfull for me as I also have a petsafe fence.But you'll get some negative comments from some folks on here that are professionals & I've learned pulse or shock dosen't do well & I only use it if my dogs is in danger I can't avoid otherwise.Prehaps a whistle if you don't want to shout.
 

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Pearl, Lila, Betty's mom
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I use an ecollar on Lila, but only because I am unable to interrupt her brain when it comes into contact with deer, and off she goes. Most of what you are talking about is basic obedience, and IMO you are doing yourself and the dog a disservice for using an ecollar for basic obedience. Considering using it on a puppy sounds terrible to me. I recommend drop the idea until you've exhausted traditional training techniques. If you aren't going to be doing hunting/trials, I don't see any reason to start young. Give the pup a chance, and yourself to learn how to train in a bonding manner, not punitive. There are so many techniques that work well, with effort and patience. Heck, Lushie Plushie just posted a blog on a recall work, and I used some of it today on Pearl who is 11 weeks old. If you have to scream at your dog regularly, you need some training work. Whistling and clapping are good recall signals too, and sound better than yelling. Good luck.

FWIW I rarely ever need to stimulate Lila, the beep has taken on the meaning of COME NOW! She whirls around and comes running. Unless she has already started onto deer, then I do use a momentary stimulation, and sometimes raise it before she will even respond. This happens maybe twice a year. She had gotten to the point where I couldn't walk off leash, which meant we didn't go for walks. Long lines, yeah right. The ecollar gave us our life together back.
 

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the party's crashing us
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Matt I have to laugh, you must be an engineer. You've got this thought out to a "T" :)
If only dog training were that easy....

Just FYI - the beep or vibrate function (which only comes on pet training collars, not professional field training collars...which should tell you something (it's for selling to owners, not dogs))....anyways the beep or vibrate will mean absolutely nothing to your dog unless it is backed up with an actual nick from the collar if they ignore it. I would RATHER use my voice and have the dog actually respond and respect my commands on the first time than relying on a monotone, random beep from the sky.

I also exclusively use the continuous vs. momentary function on my ecollar, but not by just holding it down until the dog complies. Rather I tap it for a "nick" which I find to produce a much more stable and reliable response than the momentary nick.

Anyways, good for you for doing your homework first. Best of luck...
 

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You have a lot more research to do on e-collars. Please find a professional who actually knows how to properly, and fairly, use the collar to teach you how to use correctly.
 

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I am an outdoorsy person too, so I completely understand why you need a great recall and control from 100 feet away. I have four adult dogs with snappy stylish recalls off leash, all trained with reward based methods. The forum and other sources are rich with information on how to train a reliable recall without using pain/punishment/intimidation to get a great result. As a dog trainer with 38 STAR Puppies enrolled this session alone, it is fun to see the pups learn how to learn, and become focused on their owners. This is a skill set, more than a tool to be purchased.

Even many excellent trainers who do use aversives and consider themselves balanced or traditional trainers would not advocate starting a new baby puppy off with an e collar before learning basics and being well socialized.

There is much to be gained and lost in terms of the bond between you and your new puppy, and between the puppy and his/her view of the world in those first precious weeks, no matter what tools and methods you use.

Here is a great course to take online even if you do not plan to compete in anything but just want a great dog outdoors: http://fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/24http://fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/24

Here is an interview with Dr. Nicholas Dodman of Tufts University. He wrote a good puppy book called Puppy's First Steps along with the : Dr. Nicholas Dodman on Dog Behavior and New Training Techniques | The Bark.

Before deciding an e collar, try reading Ian Dunbar, The Puppy Primer by Patricia McConnell, Control Unleashed the Puppy Program, and watching Crate Games by Susan Garrett.
 

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Hello All,
We are preparing for our puppy to arrive on August 10th and reading a lot about different training methods. We are outdoors people and intend for our dog to accompany us on all outdoor activities. From swimming, running, hiking, the soccer field, etc. etc.
I have come across the remote collars and find them very appealing.
You are wise to begin right now to learn and to study about the e-collar, and the methods designed for its use. Far too many trainers arrive late in the process, and jump ahead in the learning curve – finding later on they have holes to fill in their training program. For about the first four months the e-collar should have no place in your training, other than to be worn (inactivated) during training when your pup is of adequate size and musculature to do so unhampered by its mass.
The theory in my mind for the 4 settings on the remote would be...

Audible beep: associate this with "come". If she is across the soccer field, instead of screaming "paisley, come" at the top of lungs from 100 yards away. Simply beeping the collar would signal her to return to us
Fortunately, you do not have to re-invent the wheel for e-collar use. That man who pioneered a system for e-collar use in training retrievers was the late Hall of Fame trainer, Rex Carr from Escalon, California. Virtually all the best modern programs are based in the Carr method. They are successful not only because they are centered on incorporating the e-collar into broad usage, but because he wisely engineered a sequential development of core skills that has made it far easier for young dogs to learn and develop. My program is based in these principles.

1. The audible beep: Let me clear the air about such things as beeps, buzzes, et al. They are limited in effectiveness and scope of practice in comparison to actual training. If you want a truly well trained dog that will be reliable in any circumstance, or at any practical distance, you would be better served to follow a proven training cycle, and rely on training rather than what Rex called “marketing gimmicks”.
Vibrate: this would be used if the beep for come is ignored or for a very mild correction for a behavior
2. Come (or “here”) is a command. For applications in distances or circumstances where a verbal command may not be heard reliably a simple dog whistle is the tool of choice. 2 or more toots for “Here”, 1 toot for “Sit”. Refusal of those commands is a simple ‘nick’, or momentary stimulus from the e-collar. These command supports are conditioned through a training phase called e-collar conditioning. Your education has begun!
Pulse: this would be for a correction to an undesirable behavior, digging up the flower beds, getting into a garbage can across the field, chasing a squirrel toward a street, etc.
3. To stop undesirable behavior the command is “No”. ‘No’ does not give a dog job. It tells the dog one thing; stop doing that – whatever it may be. Please don’t rely on your dog becoming an interpreter of gimmicks to understand what you want. Train him, and again, condition him so that you can support this known command with your e-collar.
Continuous: I don’t want to ever have to "continuously correct" our dog so this would not be used.
4. Continuous: Once your dog is fully e-collar conditioned, and has finished Basics, you’ll rarely if ever have need for continuous stimulation. But don’t kid yourself; for an e-collar to be the great and useful tool it is requires a course of conditioning. Be fair in your training. This is information he will need.
The aspect I like is that the dog associates the behavior with an immediate correction.
That, and the fact that distance between dog and trainer is not an issue, are the key benefits of the modern e-collar. But you will need to learn about the tool, and the training designed for its use in order to position yourself to enjoy its benefits.

Often, the newer trainer mistakenly regards actual electrical stimulus as automatically cruel or repressive to dogs. I understand. I love them too. But such perceptions are not axiomatic. A properly trained and conditioned retriever is a happy, stable, and reliable working dog.

E-collar stimulus is a form of pressure, and can be applied as an element of force. What many people have trouble initially understanding is that the definitions of “pressure” and “force” do not imply an amount. How much pressure or force are needed to effectively change behavior is determined by the dog, not the training program. Yes, the reason we use pressure and/or force in dog training is simply to change behavior. We use the modern e-collar because it is the most effective tool to assure those changes occur, both instantly and at any practical distance up to a mile away!
So..as always....all opinions are very helpful..please share your thoughts.

Also....suggested training schedules and methods for the remote training

M&R
Paisley's Parents
As a trainer of over 35 years I admonish you to divorce yourself from any program that would place your dog on a developmental schedule. A proven program will provide a flow chart for development that will help you keep the development of your dog flowing sequentially and logically, so you should know at all times how to guide your daily training to keep pace with your dog’s needs. That is the basis of the Smartwork program.


Let me know anytime I can be of help.

EvanG
 

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Grumpy Old Man
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Hello All,
We are preparing for our puppy to arrive on August 10th and reading alot about different training methods. We are outdoors people and intend for our dog to accompany us on all outdoor activities. From swimming, running, hiking, the soccer field, etc. etc.
I have come across the remote collars and find them very appealing.

the theory in my mind for the 4 settings on the remote would be...

Audible beep: associate this with "come". if she is across the soccer field, instead of screaming "paisley, come" at the top of lungs from 100 yards away. Simply beeping the collar would signal her to return to us

Vibrate: this would be used if the beep for come is ignored or for a very mild correction for a behavior

Pulse: this would be for a correction to an undesirable behavior, digging up the flower beds, getting into a garbage can acorss the field, chasing a squirl toward a street, etc.

Continuous: i dont want to ever have to "continuously correct" our dog so this would not be used.

The aspect i like is that the dog associates the behviour with an immediate correction. If the dog is 100 yards away and starts sniffing around a picnic basket or eating someones sandwhich, me running 100 yards saying "Paisley NO" i feel is not going to be productive and she will not associate that action directly with my running and saying no....it would be more a miscue of fun. Oh look Matt is running at me waving his arms...time to play...and the whole misbehaviour of checking out a sandwhich will be missed.

So..as always....all opinions are very helpful..please share your thoughts.

Also....suggested training schedules and methods for the remote training

M&R
Paisley's Parents
Thank you for doing some study before you start!

My suggestion is that you read up on some of the Ecollar training programs that are available and pick one. Follow it through the basics and then Tailer as needed to acheive your specific goals.
 

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KCGold
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Hello All,
We are preparing for our puppy to arrive on August 10th and reading alot about different training methods. We are outdoors people and intend for our dog to accompany us on all outdoor activities. From swimming, running, hiking, the soccer field, etc. etc.
I have come across the remote collars and find them very appealing.

the theory in my mind for the 4 settings on the remote would be...

Audible beep: associate this with "come". if she is across the soccer field, instead of screaming "paisley, come" at the top of lungs from 100 yards away. Simply beeping the collar would signal her to return to us

Vibrate: this would be used if the beep for come is ignored or for a very mild correction for a behavior

Pulse: this would be for a correction to an undesirable behavior, digging up the flower beds, getting into a garbage can acorss the field, chasing a squirl toward a street, etc.

Continuous: i dont want to ever have to "continuously correct" our dog so this would not be used.

The aspect i like is that the dog associates the behviour with an immediate correction. If the dog is 100 yards away and starts sniffing around a picnic basket or eating someones sandwhich, me running 100 yards saying "Paisley NO" i feel is not going to be productive and she will not associate that action directly with my running and saying no....it would be more a miscue of fun. Oh look Matt is running at me waving his arms...time to play...and the whole misbehaviour of checking out a sandwhich will be missed.

So..as always....all opinions are very helpful..please share your thoughts.

Also....suggested training schedules and methods for the remote training

M&R
Paisley's Parents
From my limited experience with E Collars I agree with what these folks are saying. Their is a lot more to training and using this tool then you can imagine. You need to become a student of training to understand these concepts. One comment, with my dogs, I never use the collars at a level that makes the dog jerk, jump, or show any pain reaction. When setting the level of stimulus I want the dog to look around or back at me when I apply the pressure. They know something is happening but not sure what...key is I have their attention, but they are not being conditioned with pain!
 

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One comment, with my dogs, I never use the collars at a level that makes the dog jerk, jump, or show any pain reaction. When setting the level of stimulus I want the dog to look around or back at me when I apply the pressure. They know something is happening but not sure what...key is I have their attention, but they are not being conditioned with pain!
I appreciate your feelings about this. I think the important aspect in applying e-collar stimulus in training is that the e-collar is merely an implement of force or pressure. We use pressure (and/or force) to change behavior, not to hurt dogs. If a low level 2 nick evokes the needed change, why use more? Many trainers don't feel it's high enough unless the dog vocalizes. I don't get that. Weren't you just training the dog?

Whether using the e-collar or heeling stick, or any other implement of force, measure the amount of pressure by what the dog shows you; change of behavior. He was refusing to comply, was corrected, then complied, why more?

EvanG
 

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Pearl, Lila, Betty's mom
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I vehemently disagree that the beep is worthless or a gimmick. It is a warning and Lila knows that it means NOW and she virtually always whirls around and sprints back to me. The foundation of positive/clicker training means she RUNS to me in a recall, and the ecollar serves to remind her that it is not optional. I have no plans to use an ecollar on Pearl, I think most dogs can get by without it, with diligent training. Maybe the beep doesn't work with more intense ecollar training, but I love it and believe it allows me to virtually never give her stimulation. I don't think I could handle giving her stims very often, she is quite sensitive.

As Evan says, (if a beep works), "why more?"


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Grumpy Old Man
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The beep/tone may or may not be valuable depending upon how you've trained the dog. If it's used properly in a well thought out training program where it has meaning to the dog, it can be an asset. Otherwise it can be counter productive and confusing to the dog.
 

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Here's why I don't like the beep function:

Imagine you had a child that loved to dance in the street. You taught them that they aren't supposed to dance in the street, but sometimes they take off and when you look over your shoulder, there they are, doing the <namethelatestdancecraze> in the street. So you shout at them "Get out of the street now before you get a spankin'!" The child hears you and immediately gets out of the street, they don't want a spanking.
You think all is well, until the next day, when there your child is again, dancing in the street. Once again you yell at them to get out of the street, and once again they immediately comply. And the cycle continues over and over and over.
The child has learned that he's not going to get that spanking without getting a warning first. So he runs out in the street and gets his groove on, because it's such a rush, and dances until he hears his warning.

The collar beep is you saying "get over here or I'm going to zap you!" So the dog listens, he doesn't want you to set off the collar. But then the next time happens, maybe he's running off to chase the cat he just saw across the road. You call him back, but he knows he doesn't have to come back yet, he can keep running, because he knows he's going to hear a beep before you really mean it.

IMO, if you don't want to give corrections, then don't give a threat that you are thinking about using one. If you are okay giving corrections, then give them when the dog deserves them. But threatening/warning the dog doesn't teach them anything but to wait for the threat.
 

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Grumpy Old Man
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The collar beep is you saying "get over here or I'm going to zap you!" So the dog listens, he doesn't want you to set off the collar. But then the next time happens, maybe he's running off to chase the cat he just saw across the road. You call him back, but he knows he doesn't have to come back yet, he can keep running, because he knows he's going to hear a beep before you really mean it.

IMO, if you don't want to give corrections, then don't give a threat that you are thinking about using one. If you are okay giving corrections, then give them when the dog deserves them. But threatening/warning the dog doesn't teach them anything but to wait for the threat.
That is exactly my point. Improper use of the tone teaches the dog that commands can be blown off until the sound of the tone and then they have to begin complying. "Until the tone sounds, mom doesn't mean it and I can ignor her."
 

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Pearl, Lila, Betty's mom
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She's not that bad, and sometimes I even forget the transmitter. It is far better than before where she would just blow me off all the time when critters are around, and better IMO than stimulating her any more than the little that I do. She gets a stim just often enough to remember seemingly well. I think it is quite clear to her what it means. It's probably not proper training and certainly is not perfect, but it works wonders for us. I'd recommend it to anyone in our position. We just want to walk and play and camp and swim. We are able to do that. Beep beep beep! and life is good. :). No, she's not so good that I can have her by a busy road off leash. Nope, but I made that choice not to take the etraining to that level. But now I can keep her out from under the hooves of moose on mountain hikes.


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the party's crashing us
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She gets a stim just often enough to remember seemingly well. I think it is quite clear to her what it means. It's probably not proper training and certainly is not perfect, but it works wonders for us. I'd recommend it to anyone in our position. We just want to walk and play and camp and swim. We are able to do that. Beep beep beep! and life is good. :). No, she's not so good that I can have her by a busy road off leash. Nope, but I made that choice not to take the etraining to that level. But now I can keep her out from under the hooves of moose on mountain hikes.


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After vehemently disagreeing with me, you just proved my point. The beep was nothing without the actual correction from the "real" ecollar.
IOW - the beep means nothing to a dog who is not collar conditioned and experienced in getting corrections from the collar if they do not comply.
I prefer the dog to respond instantly to my voice rather than a beep, so the whole beep thing seems superfluous to me.
 

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Tracer, Rumor & Cady
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Just makes me so sad....

Just last week, another pup has crossed my path that has been ruined with a shock collar...

The pup came from a breeder I know, from a breeding pair I know...

The family couldnt get a 'perfect' recall in 8 weeks, so they sent the puppy to 'bootcamp'.

Surprise...the puppies recall is the least of their problem...now they have a puppy that is anxious and not safe around their children.

The 'trainer' has washed his hands of the 5 month old and blamed it on the breeder.
But not after he cashed the family's $2000+ check.
 

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Tracer, Rumor & Cady
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......So..as always....all opinions are very helpful..please share your thoughts......
M&R
Paisley's Parents


Because OP asked for "all opinions".....

There can be major fallout if a collar is not used appropriately.

For the record...although I have not found the need to use an ecollar for a family pet ...I train and work with a fist full of people that do....they are all 'good' people. Most are great trainers with great timing....some not so much.
 
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