[scritch]

Hi everyone,

I'm hoping that I can get some advice on how to proceed given the situation that I'm in.

I have a puppy that I purchased from a breeder. I received AKC registration papers, and was told who the sire & dam of the puppy are. Both parents have had genetic testing, and I have seen the sire's results, which were clear for all genetic diseases.

Upon getting the puppy home (when she was about 12 weeks old), I noticed that she had very flaky skin. After a few vet visits and trying different shampoos, we decided to get her genetically tested for Ichthyosis (ICT), despite the fact that her sire was CLEAR for ICT. Surprise surprise, her DNA test shows that she is 'Affected', meaning that there is no way the sire listed can be her father(at least that's what the geneticist told me). I've been trying to communicate with the breeder, but she doesn't seem to concerned about it, and although asking me if I want to return the puppy(I don't), won't respond to my request to know who this puppy's sire actually is, or help figure out what the heck is going on.

I'm trying to figure out what my next course of action should be. Having paid a lot(!!) of money for this puppy, I believe I am entitled to know her parentage. I also am concerned about other genetic diseases she might have, now that I am in the dark about her parents' DNA tests.

I just ordered an Embark DNA test because the company told me it will show close relatives, and I'm hoping to get an idea of her background from that. Embark also told me that I can request a 'parentage' test after receiving the initial results. I know the breeder has had many dogs tested at Embark, but I'm not completely convinced they will show up due to her privacy settings (though Embark tells me they will be there). I don't think they will be able to do the parentage test without her permission.

Has anyone had an Embark Relative test done? What exactly can you see?

Is there anything else I should do? Any other way to figure out who her parents are? Contact the AKC? OFA? Anyone else? I think there were 10 puppies in the litter, and this sire has supposedly been used to breed many litters, so I'm not the only one affected. Or should I just let it go and move on?

TIA!

 

[3goldens2keep]

What does the 'puppy' contract you signed (if any) actually say about all of this?

 

[Rion05]

Was your puppy tested for ICH-1 and ICH-2? A dog can have one or neither or both - being a carrier for one means nothing about having another or not having another. There are two known varieties now and unless the parents were tested for both - you don't know. ICH-2 seems to be less common at the moment and ICH-1 is quite common. ICH-2 also seems to be much more severe. It is also possible that the sire's results were inaccurate (correct sire, wrong lab result on ICH) - its does not happen often, but testing companies do sometimes make mistakes.

 

[scritch]

Puppy has ICH-1 which is what the supposed sire was CLEAR for, by two different DNA tests & companies, so I can't imagine there was a mistake twice.

I did not sign a contract, but as I said, the breeder offered to take the puppy back. I can't imagine that a contract would have addressed incorrect parentage issues, anyway. I do have the AKC papers with parents listed, which is what I am questioning.

 

[Rion05]

Puppy has ICH-1 which is what the supposed sire was CLEAR for, by two different DNA tests & companies, so I can't imagine there was a mistake twice.

I did not sign a contract, but as I said, the breeder offered to take the puppy back. I can't imagine that a contract would have addressed incorrect parentage issues, anyway. I do have the AKC papers with parents listed, which is what I am questioning.

Well that is odd! Did you also repeat the test on the puppy and have any of them been tested for ICH-2? Still, that does make the parentage more questionable. Now that litters are being bred with multiple sires, I imagine you can check parentage by DNA. If a dog has sired a certain number of litters, they may actually have DNA on file. I would possibly suspect a sire owned by the breeder. I would think your breeder would be interested in the actual parentage, as well.

 

[BlazenGR]

considering that I recently became aware of a case of fraud in regards to genetic testing, nothing surprises me anymore.

However, having a clinically affected ichthyosis dog is something that no companion home should be burdened with. (spare me the "they aren't always that bad" or "they get better if you do x,y and z). I would ask the breeder about the situation, and if you have test results for your puppy and both of the parents, request that the breeder have the sire and dam retested---whatever that means. If they don't own the sire, than it is up to the sire's owner to get it done. I was also informed that if you contact the company who ran the testing, they will confirm (or deny) the results of those tests.

 

[Prism Goldens]

So- what to do-
if it were me, I would call AKC and ask for them to investigate. While they're not too terribly on the ball with contract issues, preferring to leave those to the courts, they ARE very on the ball with parentage. Call the DNA department and explain. If sire is clear, there is no way he is sire of an affected offspring- unless the test the sire had was mishandled somehow.
So, barring that, there was another daddy. Perhaps not for all the puppies but for your puppy for sure.

 

[PalouseDogs]

Wow. I am amazed at the breeder's cavalier attitude. I have heard of a case (poodles, not Goldens) where the AKC pulled the registration of all the descendants of a particular dog when it was shown he wasn't the sire of a particular litter. If the breeder is just someone doing a one-off breeding, maybe it's not important to her, but if she plans to breed in the future, she needs to find out what happened. For you, personally, she should completely refund the puppy price, whether you keep the puppy or not.

Contact the AKC. The overriding mission of the AKC is to keep accurate stud books. If it is clear the sire was not the sire, I think they would want to know that.

 

[SRW]

Wow. I am amazed at the breeder's cavalier attitude.

Maybe the pups ICH status was no surprise to her.

 

[Megora]

Hate to say this, but I've heard of people who somehow or other faked DNA results. Both a breeder, but more importantly have heard of a stud owner (big CH dog, etc) who somehow or other had funny business. Go the AKC route if breeder is not responding productively.

 

[scritch]

Thanks for all your replies.

I appreciate all your advice. This breeder has used this sire many times before, and has a big breeding operation, so it should definitely matter to them. Their lack of concern is perhaps what is bothering me the most.

The company that I first used to test my puppy's DNA for ICH-1 told me that they ran it twice just to be sure it was accurate. They said given her clinical symptoms, she's definitely positive. However, I am going to have the Embark full panel of genetic tests done as well, since now I'm uncertain of her heritage.

I think I should wait for the Embark test results, which will take at least 3-4 weeks, since I just ordered the collection kit. Frustrating to wait that long, but I think I'd be better off armed with more test results before contacting the AKC. Although the breeder's dogs are all protected under their privacy settings(she has many dogs that have been tested through Embark, or so they told me), Embark did promise me that if any are closely related to her, they will show up in the 'relatives' section of her test results. This test result will also be a second confirmation of her 'affected' status for ICH-1.

Neither of the DNA companies will disclose the supposed sire's Ichthyosis DNA test results to me, citing privacy, which I understand, but it is frustrating knowing that the official test results are sitting there and I can't see them.

 

[scritch]

Well, Embark DNA test is complete. Confirmed ICH1 again, and luckily no genetic markers for any other diseases. Unfortunately, none of the breeder's dogs showed up as Maisy's 'relatives', and upon questioning Embark again, they now say that DNA tests run for 'Breeders' and set to 'private' won't show up, which is opposite of what they told me when I asked before ordering the test. So that's a dead end.

Embark can run a direct parentage test, but they need permission from the breeder. I've asked her repeatedly to give them permission, and she is just not answering my texts and emails. So, another dead end.

Now that I feel like I've given her every opportunity to explain this to me, and she won't, I don't mind sharing the breeder. It's Karen Moore of Icewind Kennels in Phillipsburg, NJ, and the sire is Rus Pekos Baileys - 'Zane'.

My next step is to report her to the AKC for a falsified pedigree, but, according to their website, I need to put a $500 'deposit' down on the investigation, which I'm not sure I'm willing to do.

Beyond leaving negative reviews on her business, I think I might be out of options. So frustrating!

 

[LJack]

Well, Rus Pekos is a foreign dog so he would have had to been DNA‘d through AKC directly. If the mom is also a foreign born dog the same would hold true for her.

I would recommend contacting AKC directly and let them know you have credible reason to believe that the registration/recorded pedigree of your dog is wrong. Not 💯 sure but due to the testing you have that might be treated differently than reporting the breeder.

There is also a back door passive way to approach this that might work in that you can DNA test your puppy with OFA for $50. If the DNA doesn’t match to at least the dad, AKC should step in. I have heard of this when a pet home completed a CGC title and AKC marketed the DNA test as an “add on” which uncovered the parentage issue. They do change the registration to conditional though.

^New Barcoded AKC DNA Test Kit

One LineThis kit requires activation using a barcode and activation code at DNA.AKC.ORG prior to submission. Failure to do so will result in delays in receiving results. Parentage identification only. Does NOT determine dog breed.OverviewNew Prepaid Barcoded AKC DNA Test Kit (Nonrefundable)Inste...

shop.akc.org

 

[scritch]

I would recommend contacting AKC directly and let them know you have credible reason to believe that the registration/recorded pedigree of your dog is wrong. Not 💯 sure but due to the testing you have that might be treated differently than reporting the breeder.

^New Barcoded AKC DNA Test Kit

One LineThis kit requires activation using a barcode and activation code at DNA.AKC.ORG prior to submission. Failure to do so will result in delays in receiving results. Parentage identification only. Does NOT determine dog breed.OverviewNew Prepaid Barcoded AKC DNA Test Kit (Nonrefundable)Inste...

shop.akc.org

Thank you for this! I emailed the AKC today, and they will test parentage without the breeder's permission. If Zane isn't her sire, they will contact Icewind and also attempt to contact all of the other puppies in the litter. I do have to pay the $50 for the dna collection kit, but at this point I think it's worth it to go ahead and just do it. Looks like another 7-8 weeks of waiting for the results!

 

[LJack]

Please follow up. I have to admit I am very curious.

 

[scritch]

Please follow up. I have to admit I am very curious.

Will do!

 

[scritch]

Well... we received an envelope in the mail from the AKC last week... I couldn't wait to open it and see the results of Maisy's parentage test... just to find that they didn't have enough DNA to do the test!! I waited 8 weeks for that! So frustrating. They sent a re-collection kit, so I did it ASAP and sent it off a few days ago. Now another 8 week wait for the results again ...
Part of me thinks maybe they did find a discrepancy wanted to re-check with a fresh DNA sample before telling me. We'll see...

 

[pawsnpaca]

Thanks for the update. I know it must be frustrating to not have an answer, but I agree that your theory (that they want to be absolutely sure) is plausible. I’m also very curious to hear how this all shakes out!

 

[Rion05]

Well... we received an envelope in the mail from the AKC last week... I couldn't wait to open it and see the results of Maisy's parentage test... just to find that they didn't have enough DNA to do the test!! I waited 8 weeks for that! So frustrating. They sent a re-collection kit, so I did it ASAP and sent it off a few days ago. Now another 8 week wait for the results again ...
Part of me thinks maybe they did find a discrepancy wanted to re-check with a fresh DNA sample before telling me. We'll see...

Well...gosh, if the parentage is wrong, that could have some consequences. Better they get it right. Please keep us updated.

 

[aesthetic]

AKC is unfortunately not known for their speed at doing much of anything. I can only imagine the frustration, but I hope the recollection gets you enough DNA to get a solid answer!!