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Border collies are actually a very good example of you can't tell how well bred a dog is just by looking at them. :0

Have seen some performance line ones who have roached backs and other things going on. Awful looking dogs.

The show ones are breathtaking - and not just in the show ring.

Couple years ago, I got to SEE one in obedience whose dog got like a 199 score and beat out the goldens. Show line BC. Breathtaking dog. Moved like a dream. I remember the judge could not take his eyes off the girlie - primarily because 99.9999999% of BC's you see in obedience are the ones who are built weird.

Another example of a good vs bad breeder - the good breeders will make the earth move with their wrath if they find out that their dogs ended up in a shelter or rescue.
Border Collies also make great service dogs. If you have never seen a working BC herd..you will love this short flick! The ability to work in teams is amazing and fun to watch.
TBH, I believe that mine was either a farm dog that was surrendered for chasing livestock, or maybe a service type animal that the owner was unable to care for.
I also have the Golden Puppy (another farm dog), a BC/Lab mix puppy (farm dog too), and a Mini Aussie from an accidental litter west of town in the stix of Nevada. I would NEVER consider one dog better then the next..just different. The BC was my heart dog and is just..well..different and hard to explain.


 

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I think I saw you say that before and my head kinda went rolling LOL. I've never heard of English shepherds and had to go look - basically looks like an aussie with a tail? I still don't get it!

I think with my dogs - people somewhat hesitantly ask if they are labs? <= And hesitantly, like they know they're completely wrong, but don't know what the real answer is? LOLOLOL.

Or they feel the need to tell me that they know somebody with a "white golden" like that naturally follows when meeting purebred goldens. At which point I get a frozen smile and opt to say nothing. NOTHING. :)

BTW - if I sound giddy, I just found out that 2021 the GR national is going to be in Michigan!!!!!!!! Thank you to the club down in OH for using a Michigan site!!!!

Yeah....I really don’t get that one! She looks like a pure golden to me! Lol! Ugh. The English cream thing. I’ve been asked that more times than I can count!

Was there an announcement about national? Im excited to go. Not going to Florida this year.

And here’s my “English Shepherd” the darker one.
869657
 

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Kate
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I don't think there has been an official OFFICIAL announcement to general public, but the OH clubs have been notified that the show will be held down in Monroe. And Christy Thomas said Labor Day as far as schedule - which I love how early that is! I'm sure the show will be held inside on carpeting in the big building, but they could show outside on grass!

Cuyahuga Valley GRC is still hosting - but they are bringing it up into Michigan. Which is awesome. Should pull as big or bigger entries than the show back in 2015! :)

Since I'll be saving money on travel and hotels - I probably will enter more stuff! By then I should have 3 dogs in obedience and maybe conformation.... :D
 

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Thats awesome Kate! The Eastern Regional Specialty was just announced and I am so excited to be able to enter this year!!! We are going to enter in obedience and the CCA.
 

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I don't think there has been an official OFFICIAL announcement to general public, but the OH clubs have been notified that the show will be held down in Monroe. And Christy Thomas said Labor Day as far as schedule - which I love how early that is! I'm sure the show will be held inside on carpeting in the big building, but they could show outside on grass!

Cuyahuga Valley GRC is still hosting - but they are bringing it up into Michigan. Which is awesome. Should pull as big or bigger entries than the show back in 2015! :)

Since I'll be saving money on travel and hotels - I probably will enter more stuff! By then I should have 3 dogs in obedience and maybe conformation.... :D
I have known some things for a while. We were told to keep it quiet. If Christy is talking about it then I imagine it's okay and the announcement will come soon. I'll definitely have one in obedience, maybe one in agility. I will have to stop showing one so my granddaughter can show one in 4-H. She will get my girl. Maybe we can find something for her to enter by then.
 

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Kate
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I have known some things for a while. We were told to keep it quiet. If Christy is talking about it then I imagine it's okay and the announcement will come soon. I'll definitely have one in obedience, maybe one in agility. I will have to stop showing one so my granddaughter can show one in 4-H. She will get my girl. Maybe we can find something for her to enter by then.
I was planning to attend even if the show were down in southeast OH. :)

If the show were this fall, I'd definitely say I'll have 3 goldens in conformation and 3 goldens in obedience (BN, CD, and CDX levels).

Looking out a year - I hope I can still show Bertie, but he will be 9 years old by then and may need and fully deserve complete retirement.

Otherwise, may just be showing the two babies next year in conformation for sure... and whatever level they will be at for obedience.
 

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I was planning to attend even if the show were down in southeast OH. :)

If the show were this fall, I'd definitely say I'll have 3 goldens in conformation and 3 goldens in obedience (BN, CD, and CDX levels).

Looking out a year - I hope I can still show Bertie, but he will be 9 years old by then and may need and fully deserve complete retirement.

Otherwise, may just be showing the two babies next year in conformation for sure... and whatever level they will be at for obedience.
It wouldn't be in Southeast Ohio. There's pretty much nothing over there! Central or Southwest. :) I'm pretty excited to go. We are skipping Florida. I have a big, once in a lifetime vacation coming up.
 

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Kate
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It wouldn't be in Southeast Ohio. There's pretty much nothing over there! Central or Southwest. :) I'm pretty excited to go. We are skipping Florida. I have a big, once in a lifetime vacation coming up.
I just vaguely knew it was supposed to be somewhere near the PA edge. That's southeast of Toledo, OH (Michigan logic) LOLOL.

Seriously speaking - I'd been planning on doing the National when it was in MO a couple years ago. It would have been fine - I have family down there that I would have stayed with. Then when I heard OH was coming and that blew MO out of the water. :D
 

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I just vaguely knew it was supposed to be somewhere near the PA edge. That's southeast of Toledo, OH (Michigan logic) LOLOL.

Seriously speaking - I'd been planning on doing the National when it was in MO a couple years ago. It would have been fine - I have family down there that I would have stayed with. Then when I heard OH was coming and that blew MO out of the water. :D
LOL! Southeast of Toledo is pretty much the entire state of Ohio.
 

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Speaking of pure bred vs well bred I could NOT believe my eyes when I saw an ad on this forum for a puppy mill farm. I get the uptick with ads even though they are ugly and a hassle but a Puppy Mill Farm? Golden blasphemy coming from the top.

dlm ny country
 

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I think if you look back 50 years or more in any breed you can see that the breed standards for all dogs have changed across the board. From German shepherds with their dropped hind quarters to Golden’s more petite features and lanky profiles that none of this was an original breed standard, just people trying to change the breeds. We then question why our pets have so many health issues. I’m not a breeder nor a vet, but something seems amiss.
 

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The breed standard of the Golden Retriever has changed very very little. Goldens have always been a medium dog breed. The standard stressed moderation, and when you see huge 80-100 pound golden retrievers...those dogs are actually way out of standard. Breeders who produce dogs that are that far out of standard don't care about the standard...and are not breeding to preserve the breed. Most golden retrievers that you see out and about are not from reputable breeders.

What most of the general public does not know, is that breed standards were created to preserve FORM and FUNCTION. When a breed standard calls for a specific feature, it is because there is a purpose for that feature, so a dog can perform the job they were bred to do. Goldens are meant to be a specific size, with specific features so that they can successfully perform their job.
 

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Kate
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I think if you look back 50 years or more in any breed you can see that the breed standards for all dogs have changed across the board. From German shepherds with their dropped hind quarters to Golden’s more petite features and lanky profiles that none of this was an original breed standard, just people trying to change the breeds. We then question why our pets have so many health issues. I’m not a breeder nor a vet, but something seems amiss.
The breed standard has not changed.

There is nothing wrong with the golden retriever breed standard.

What's wrong is when people just breed whatever they have on hand without any knowledge of what exactly is INCORRECT and POOR QUALITY with their dogs and the dog-things they are producing.

One other comment is the line "form follow function" - it has been repeated so many times in all situations to attack show bred goldens, that I think people have lost track of what it actually means. Or what they are saying.

What I think they are saying is that rather than breed to a set standard and throw away dogs who have titled sometimes very highly in sports like field or agility, they are making excuses for breeding dogs who they say are built for those sports.

This where some dorks in field try saying that show bred goldens are too heavily coated to swim. I could not believe my eyes at the idiocy of somebody saying that a golden with a show coat will struggle to swim - just because he has a correct double coat with furnishings.

Talking with somebody in obedience (who is regularly producing dual champions with her breed) about goldens and the typical issues that new owners face - like the strong necks and pulling.

Her comment was this breed should be a medium large breed (around 60-75 pounds), have a good sized jaw, moderate sized head, and good strong neck and shoulder construction designed for carrying heavy birds.

But people in other sports point at show goldens and claim they have been bred to look like newfies - which clearly shows that they have never met a newfoundland in person. :)

When people recite form follows function - what they really mean is they don't care what the dog looks like or how that dog applies to a physical translation of the breed standard. All that matters is whether that dog is an excellent working dog. What they leave out are the back injuries and extraordinary muscle injuries that these dogs suffer while working - a big part of which is due to structure. Those injuries should be a reminder that form is still very important!
 

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Puddles
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I'm pretty sure breeders on this site would take exception to the change of the standard. The standard has been refined to be more specific but hasn't actually "changed" the basic standard for size, coat, purpose or temperament. When I compared the 1970 version to today, the basic stuff was the pretty much the same.
However I'm positive there are plenty of breeders & judges that have a very different interpretation of the standard.
 

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As an aside - well bred GSDs don't have dropped hindquarters. Any breed in a three-point stack will have the same "sloped back". Rumor, the GSD who won BIS at Westminster 2017, is OFA excellent. The reason GSDs in particular are shown in the three-point stack is because it shows angulation more and it's a natural position for them to stand in - the same way that a structurally balanced golden retriever "should" naturally stand in a four-point stack.
 

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Kate
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As an aside - well bred GSDs don't have dropped hindquarters. Any breed in a three-point stack will have the same "sloped back". Rumor, the GSD who won BIS at Westminster 2017, is OFA excellent. The reason GSDs in particular are shown in the three-point stack is because it shows angulation more and it's a natural position for them to stand in - the same way that a structurally balanced golden retriever "should" naturally stand in a four-point stack.
She had a sloped back when gaiting too....

Although I agree stacks can make any dog look bad if the feet are set up weird.
 

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Jamie
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This where some dorks in field try saying that show bred goldens are too heavily coated to swim. I could not believe my eyes at the idiocy of somebody saying that a golden with a show coat will struggle to swim - just because he has a correct double coat with furnishings.

Talking with somebody in obedience (who is regularly producing dual champions with her breed) about goldens and the typical issues that new owners face - like the strong necks and pulling.

Her comment was this breed should be a medium large breed (around 60-75 pounds), have a good sized jaw, moderate sized head, and good strong neck and shoulder construction designed for carrying heavy birds.

But people in other sports point at show goldens and claim they have been bred to look like newfies - which clearly shows that they have never met a newfoundland in person. :)
This argument gets old. There are show breeders that go to the extreme and there are field breeders that go to the extreme. Yes there are also field breeders that breed dogs that aren't structurally great but can work their butts off all day. But let's not pretend that there aren't just as many show breeders doing the same and breeding dogs, while structurally great, couldn't find a bird if it dropped at their feet. You can't talk about one extreme and not admit that the other side doesn't do the exact same thing.
 

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Kate
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This argument gets old. There are show breeders that go to the extreme and there are field breeders that go to the extreme. Yes there are also field breeders that breed dogs that aren't structurally great but can work their butts off all day. But let's not pretend that there aren't just as many show breeders doing the same and breeding dogs, while structurally great, couldn't find a bird if it dropped at their feet. You can't talk about one extreme and not admit that the other side doesn't do the exact same thing.
Field dogs blah blah blah.

Show dogs blah blah blah...

My poop is better than your poop?

You DO understand that there are a LOT of show dogs who have structural issues too????

There was a past show where I was covering my mouth and nodding while somebody had a fit because they saw a dog win who was a BLOB. I'm not sure the dog was as bad as all that, but it is true class dogs shouldn't be rippling and waddliing in the ring and still winning.... :)

Another situation I heard of was a young puppy golden who won his class (did NOT win in the Winners Ring) who everyone outside the ring was stopping and looking at and not for the right reasons - because the dog looked like he had hip dysplasia. One breeder commented that she put better dogs in pet homes than that "crap".

Does that tell you that all show dogs are that bad?

Well, no... the only reason why those dogs stand out is because the quality is usually better with flaws easier to hide.

Have I said that all field dogs are terrible looking with poor structure, incorrect coats (single coats, no furnishings, etc)? Not lately. :)

My actual comment (that you snipped out so it wouldn't conflict with your bellyache) was that the overused line "form follows function" is latched onto by people who have NO CLUE what correct structure actually is and they use it to defend breeding and reproducing dogs who have terrible structure that might be fine with them, but will create heartache for puppy buyers whose dogs need to be retired because of elbow dysplasia, spondylosis, catastrophic and vastly unusual muscle injuries, and so on.
 

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Jamie
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My actual comment (that you snipped out so it wouldn't conflict with your bellyache) was that the overused line "form follows function" is latched onto by people who have NO CLUE what correct structure actually is and they use it to defend breeding and reproducing dogs who have terrible structure that might be fine with them, but will create heartache for puppy buyers whose dogs need to be retired because of elbow dysplasia, spondylosis, catastrophic and vastly unusual muscle injuries, and so on.
Lol I snipped it out because people are more than capable of scrolling up a couple lines to see your full message. I do so for brevity more than anything as I don't like to make long rambling messages.
 
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