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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Our puppy is agitated when we try to eat. We have never given him food directly from our plates. He is fed before we eat, and his treat for letting us finish our meals is that we give him left overs (via the kitchen and dog bowl).

We make Murphy Sit if we are eating in the same room, and we give his treat when we finish. He complies with this approach for a few minutes before thrashing toys with frustration; the process of returning him to a Sit (before he escalates from grabbing toys to grabbing us) causes a lot of meal interruptions and my wife is fed up.

When there is no food around he eats something else, some edible and some not. Murphy is never full and won't stop eating. He takes any food he can reach, and he can reach anywhere we can reach - he puts both front paws on our human counters, then stretches his body and a paw to pull things off. We can no longer have an open fruit bowl because he takes apples, oranges, bananas, etc. We currently have a closed picnic basket in the middle of the dining table because collectively the full basket is too heavy for him to take, but that won't be true for long.

He cries/barks/howls upwards if we eat in a room above. It's actually the sound of knives and forks that sets him off. I have observed him when my wife eats upstairs; he ignores me and paces between the staircase and the highest point he can stand on, stands on a couch and listens to the ceiling, and he makes tormented noises.

He is the alarm clock because he cries for breakfast (I give up and give him a handful of kibble, which leaves him quiet for a couple of hours until our planned breakfast), and he cries if he is not eating during lights out (my wife gives up and he gets a biscuit). He is generally quiet throughout the day, and during his meal times he sits quietly waiting for his bowl to be placed.

On balance its not the act of eating, but his permanent state of hunger, and he is over fed according to dog food packaging. How do people make their dogs wait for meals?
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
I think I have answered my own question. How about... each time he interrupts our meal, we throw the meal in the bin? Each time he lets us eat, we give him a treat afterwards? We would have to start with very small meals!
 

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He is fed before we eat, and his treat for letting us finish our meals is that we give him left overs (via the kitchen and dog bowl).
This sums up the problem and you are creating it.
Feed him in his crate and don't let him out until you have finished your meal. He does not "let you" finish a meal or do anything else and deserves no treat, especially your left overs. You need to be the leader and he has to know it.
 

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While I agree that crating him and ignoring him during dinner is a good idea, it concerns me that you say he eats oranges. I've never had a dog that would eat oranges and you are implying he eats unpeeled oranges. Forget what is says on the food bag. How thin is he? What type of food are you feeding him?
If he's skinny, I'd try feeding him more, and feeding a high-quality food like Purina Pro Plan that might make him feel more satisfied. If he's plump and he's so ravenous he's eating unpeeled oranges and bananas, I'd have a blood panel and urinalysis done. He might have a physical problem like thyroid levels, diabetes, or Cushings disease.
 

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I agree with Palouse Dogs that your puppy should be seen by a vet. Another condition that exhibits as tremendous hunger is Endocrine Pancreatic Deficiency (EPI) where the dog cannot produce enough digestive enzymes. It is rare but getting less so. It is controlled by putting enzymes in the food. My dog was diagnosed before she had lost weight because I was with her constantly and noticed her opening lower cabinet doors looking for food. It does not appear on a normal blood panel. Its a special test that is only read by 2 labs in the US. If all else is ruled out, you might want to bring this up with your vet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
I've never had a dog that would eat oranges and you are implying he eats unpeeled oranges.
He is not skinny. He is not stupid. He peels the oranges and bananas.

Purina Pro Plan
Purina suggest its good for them to eat fruits. They "yes" to oranges and bananas.

 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Seriously?
Yes. He makes a mess of it, but he does:
  • Bananas: Bites at the stubby end ignoring the stem - after the first few centimetres the banana skin splits by itself. He eats the flesh and leaves the skins. He sometimes come back for 2nd pass and will eat some skins if he cannot find anything better.
  • Oranges: These are actually satsumas. He plays with the satsuma, bites it whole and splits it. He makes a mess but eventually turns it inside out.
  • Apples: Chews it, splits it, chews the halves and nothing remains.
Other fruits he likes are Strawberries, Blueberries, and melon chunks. We used to use blueberries as low-fat treats in training, but he responds better to cooked meats or cheese.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
If he's plump and he's so ravenous he's eating unpeeled oranges and bananas, I'd have a blood panel and urinalysis done.
There is a history of Murphy's development with some weights and profiles in my showcase. Are you saying your dogs get fed up of eating? 😱


Today:
  • Breakfast at home: 400g Butcher's Puppy canned wet food, 1 hand of kibble
  • Lunch (picnic): 150g Butcher's Puppy tray wet food, 1 hand of kibble ... plus 2 satsumas and 1 apple
  • Unplanned food from someone else's garden: one roast pork platter (estimate 300g), some broccoli, and some peas (they encouraged him and asked them to stop)
  • Training treats: Estimate 20g of cheese, and a couple of meat strips.
  • Dinner at home: 400g Natures Menu Original Puppy canned wet food
  • As a I write this he is looking to see if there is food on the table..
He is 17 weeks old, and I tried weighing him but he would not stay still on the scales. Scales fluctuated with max 19kg, which is above the average but less than the largest for a male GR of his age.
 

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There is a history of Murphy's development with some weights and profiles in my showcase. Are you saying your dogs get fed up of eating? 😱


Today:
  • Breakfast at home: 400g Butcher's Puppy canned wet food, 1 hand of kibble
  • Lunch (picnic): 150g Butcher's Puppy tray wet food, 1 hand of kibble ... plus 2 satsumas and 1 apple
  • Entered someone else's garden: one roast pork platter (estimate 300g), some broccoli, and a bowl of peas (they encouraged him)
  • Training treats: Estimate 20g of cheese, and a couple of meat strips.
  • Dinner at home: 400g Natures Menu Original Puppy canned wet food
  • As a I write this he is looking to see if there is food on the table..
He is 17 weeks old, and I tried weighing him but he would not stay still on the scales. Scales fluctuated with max 19kg.
About weighing him at home, you hold him securely and stand on the scales, then put him down and weigh yourself...subtract and voila, you have his weight and it’s pretty accurate. We do this before Archie has a vet visit to somewhat calibrate our scales with her’s. I do have to say that 41 pounds/19 kg for a 17-week old puppy sounds like a lot, so maybe a vet visit is in order. Otherwise good luck, as it sounds like you have your hands full.
 

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I don’t feed mine from the table or the kitchen counters. Our food is off limits. The counters are off limits. We can eat at a restaurant with Logan with us and we are not bugged for our food.

Have you taught him any impulse control type things? I can have a bowl of popcorn in my lap on the couch with Logan beside me and he doesn’t try to get it. Teach him “Not yours.” Teach him to wait to start eating his food once you put the bowl down until you tell him okay. If he is disrupting your dinner, crate him while you eat until you train him to behave while you eat.

I have given my dogs fruit for snacks — blueberries, banana, and strawberries. They don’t like citrus. I’ve never given them an entire banana — just a slice or two.

7 Dog Impulse Control Games: Teach Your Dog Self Control!


Edit: Another thing I just thought may help you is a snuffle mat for feeding your dog. It will keep him busier/take him longer to eat his food. Let him work on it while you eat until you get things under control with his behavior. Obviously, don't leave him unsupervised if you think he will eat the mat once he finishes his food.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Teach him to wait to start eating his food once you put the bowl down until you tell him okay.
One thing I have learned from Murphy is to focus on the root causes, and not the symptoms. This particular suggestion might be what we need. It seems plausible that he might naturally stop seeking food on counters or tables if he waiting for permission to eat!

Currently he sits and we then place his bowl of food. We have so far failed to get a delay working. I'll work that (y)

They don’t like citrus.
That is lucky! If Murphy turned his nose up at sharp fruits I wouldn't be quite so worried about him discovering grapes.
 

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One thing I have learned from Murphy is to focus on the root causes, and not the symptoms. This particular suggestion might be what we need. It seems plausible that he might naturally stop seeking food on counters or tables if he waiting for permission to eat!

Currently he sits and we then place his bowl of food. We have so far failed to get a delay working. I'll work that (y)


That is lucky! If Murphy turned his nose up at sharp fruits I wouldn't be quite so worried about him discovering grapes.
I make Beckett wait multiple times during the day before he can eat (meals, treats, etc.). When it’s a particularly crazy day, I try to extend it long enough so that I can get a few bites in to my dinner first LOL. Once Murphy understands the concept of wait you can extend the time Longer and longer.

As an add note - I know you mentioned you have moved all fruit from Murphy’s reach, but I would be careful if he gets to the apples again, I believe the core is not good for dogs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I would be careful if he gets to the apples again, I believe the core is not good for dogs.
I agree to an extent. The taking of a lone apple does not worry me, but I share your concern in larger numbers. I need to take actions to prevent Murphy lingering around apple trees before autumn/fall.

The purely fibrous core of an apple is, I believe, safe for dogs that can physically swallow it. However, the apple seeds in the core contain cyanide! The cyanide is released when the seeds are digested by dogs and humans alike.

As there are slight differences in the digestion and metabolism of dogs and humans so I am unsure which, dog or human, is most at risk of cyanide poisoning from apple seeds. Assuming both species are 100% efficient in absorbing the cyanide, I believe a potentially lethal dose of cyanide is roughly 3mg per litre of blood.

There is less than 3.5mg of cyanide in a typical whole apple. As a very rough order of magnitude I estimate there is 5L of blood for every 8kg of body weight. My very rough estimate suggests that the seeds of one apple presents risk to a body that weighs less than 1.5kg. If I have done my maths right, I think Murphy would be critically ill if he ate the seeds of 12 apples.

Does this bring into question why school children would bring an apple to their teacher?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
About weighing him at home, you hold him securely and stand on the scales, then put him down and weigh yourself...subtract and voila, you have his weight and it’s pretty accurate. We do this before Archie has a vet visit to somewhat calibrate our scales with her’s. I do have to say that 41 pounds/19 kg for a 17-week old puppy sounds like a lot, so maybe a vet visit is in order. Otherwise good luck, as it sounds like you have your hands full.
I was carrying him and he was thrashing while I stood on the scales. The machine was unable to fix on a number while he was wriggling to get free.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I wouldn’t let mine eat the core, much less multiple apples. At the least, seems it would give a dog the runs. Could be a choking hazard also.

Fruits and Vegetables Dogs Can and Cannot Eat
The link you provided does not say that.

The deep link says, "You also want to keep the core, including the stem, away from your pup because it poses a choking hazard." Emphasis is mine. If the core is OK for adult dogs, and baring in mind Murphy is larger than most adult dogs, I don't think there is a feasible choking hazard. As for too much of any fruit, I agree, and too much fruits give me a belly ache too! :)
 

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The link you provided does not say that.

The deep link says, "You also want to keep the core, including the stem, away from your pup because it poses a choking hazard." Emphasis is mine. If the core is OK for adult dogs, and baring in mind Murphy is larger than most adult dogs, I don't think there is a feasible choking hazard. As for too much of any fruit, I agree, and too much fruits give me a belly ache too! :)
I was sharing my opinion. I provided the link as helpful additional information. :)


I put this in quotes because it is from the article linked below:

"The main things to watch for when feeding apples to dogs are seeds and cores. The seeds contain trace amounts of cyanide, which is toxic. It would take quite a few seeds to cause any kind of cyanide poisoning, and if your dog swallows a few, it isn’t likely to cause harm. Even so, it’s not necessary to risk your dog’s health, so remove the seeds before you feed your dog apples.

Some suggest that stems may be dangerous, as well, so it’s best to remove stems, too. The core of the apple is firm and difficult for most dogs to chew. It may present a choking hazard or, if swallowed, cause gastrointestinal blockage."

Apple Cores
 
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