[Oceanside]

Hi!

I lost my dog Toby earlier this month. I’m still missing him every day. For now, I am exploring the possibility of getting another golden sometime later this year, because life isn’t complete without a dog. I’m not in a big rush so I’m just taking time to learn about breeders.

I’m wondering if (apart from how healthy the parents are) it’s important to look at the life span of the lineage which your puppy comes from, ie. how long-lived the grandparents are?

Also on a related note, whether it’s common to have the same sire on both sides of the grandparents for the same dog (the potential dam of the puppy)?

Thank you in advance for the advice and input!

Sorry for your loss

First and foremost, it is important to ensure the parents (and the rest of the pedigree) has the required health clearances - hips, elbows, heart, and eyes per the GRCA Code of Ethics.

As far as lifespan, everyone has their own criteria here. I like to make sure there isn’t a trend of multiple young deaths, say less than 8 years old, in the pedigree. Or a trend of the same type of cancer appearing consistently generation after generation. Bonus points for a pedigree where a lot of the dogs lived 12+ years, but that’s not super common. On the flip side, some people insist that there is no correlation between pedigree lifespan and offspring lifespan. There are a lot of things we don’t know, so we just need to make decisions we are each comfortable with.

When you see the same dog on both sides of the pedigree, that’s called linebreeding. Linebreeding is fairly common, and it’s done to help set certain attributes into the offspring. If you’re doubling up on the genes from a dog, you’re doubling up on both the good and the bad, so it’s done carefully. People have different preferences for how close of a linebreeding they are comfortable with. Same grandsire (half siblings being bred together) will definitely be controversial, but it’s done occasionally. Brackett breeding - great grandsire on one side is the grandsire on the other - much more common, and less risky. You’ll also commonly see much looser linebreedings, like great grandsire on one side and great great grandsire on the other, which isn’t very close at all.

 

[Toby's Human]

Sorry for your loss

First and foremost, it is important to ensure the parents (and the rest of the pedigree) has the required health clearances - hips, elbows, heart, and eyes per the GRCA Code of Ethics.

As far as lifespan, everyone has their own criteria here. I like to make sure there isn’t a trend of multiple young deaths, say less than 8 years old, in the pedigree. Or a trend of the same type of cancer appearing consistently generation after generation. Bonus points for a pedigree where a lot of the dogs lived 12+ years, but that’s not super common. On the flip side, some people insist that there is no correlation between pedigree lifespan and offspring lifespan. There are a lot of things we don’t know, so we just need to make decisions we are each comfortable with.

When you see the same dog on both sides of the pedigree, that’s called linebreeding. Linebreeding is fairly common, and it’s done to help set certain attributes into the offspring. If you’re doubling up on the genes from a dog, you’re doubling up on both the good and the bad, so it’s done carefully. People have different preferences for how close of a linebreeding they are comfortable with. Same grandsire (half siblings being bred together) will definitely be controversial, but it’s done occasionally. Brackett breeding - great grandsire on one side is the grandsire on the other - much more common, and less risky. You’ll also commonly see much looser linebreedings, like great grandsire on one side and great great grandsire on the other, which isn’t very close at all.

Thank you for the detailed response, this really helps me in knowing what to look out for! I'll need to read up on linebreeding as well.

 

[Christen113]

I'm very sorry for your loss. I saw this quote when I lost Lacey and it hit home.
“There is a cycle of love and death that shapes the lives of those who choose to travel in the company of animals. It is a cycle unlike any other. To those who have never lived through its turnings and walked its rocky path, our willingness to give our hearts with full knowledge that they will be broken seems incomprehensible. Only we know how small a price we pay for what we receive; our grief, no matter how powerful it may be, is an insufficient measure of the joy we have been given.”
― Suzanne Clothier, Bones Would Rain from the Sky: Deepening Our Relationships with Dogs

I always look at the longevity in a pedigree. If there are young deaths, I dig in further and see if they produced young deaths themselves and what the rest of the pedigree looks like. There's a balance and ideally, you want it all--great temperaments, structure, health, clearances, longevity, biddability, etc. You'll find people that say the longevity doesn't matter but there's a reason your own doctor will look at early family cancers (like breast or prostate) differently than they do late onset cancers and I generally find that there are some breeders that "outperform" others in terms of longevity. There's never a guarantee but we can at least try to stack the deck in our favor. Personally, my early versus late cut off is 10 years old. The Doberman Club of America gives a "longevity certificate" if all of the grandparents are over 10 and I'd love to see goldens start that.

Yes, it's common to see the same dogs in a pedigree. You seal the style with linebreeding but you cement the good and the bad genetics. They did a COI study in poodles and there's a loose correlation to lower COIs (6.25% and under) living longer than higher COIs but it's a pretty scattered chart. There are always going to be some long lived dogs with very high COIs and young deaths in low COIs. I think the dogs that make up a COI make a big difference and I would try to dig into the main COI contributors. I like to see those dogs over 10 as well.

 

[Toby's Human]

I'm very sorry for your loss. I saw this quote when I lost Lacey and it hit home.
“There is a cycle of love and death that shapes the lives of those who choose to travel in the company of animals. It is a cycle unlike any other. To those who have never lived through its turnings and walked its rocky path, our willingness to give our hearts with full knowledge that they will be broken seems incomprehensible. Only we know how small a price we pay for what we receive; our grief, no matter how powerful it may be, is an insufficient measure of the joy we have been given.”
― Suzanne Clothier, Bones Would Rain from the Sky: Deepening Our Relationships with Dogs

I always look at the longevity in a pedigree. If there are young deaths, I dig in further and see if they produced young deaths themselves and what the rest of the pedigree looks like. There's a balance and ideally, you want it all--great temperaments, structure, health, clearances, longevity, biddability, etc. You'll find people that say the longevity doesn't matter but there's a reason your own doctor will look at early family cancers (like breast or prostate) differently than they do late onset cancers and I generally find that there are some breeders that "outperform" others in terms of longevity. There's never a guarantee but we can at least try to stack the deck in our favor. Personally, my early versus late cut off is 10 years old. The Doberman Club of America gives a "longevity certificate" if all of the grandparents are over 10 and I'd love to see goldens start that.

Yes, it's common to see the same dogs in a pedigree. You seal the style with linebreeding but you cement the good and the bad genetics. They did a COI study in poodles and there's a loose correlation to lower COIs (6.25% and under) living longer than higher COIs but it's a pretty scattered chart. There are always going to be some long lived dogs with very high COIs and young deaths in low COIs. I think the dogs that make up a COI make a big difference and I would try to dig into the main COI contributors. I like to see those dogs over 10 as well.

Thank you, that is a beautiful quote.

I have been checking up the dams and sires from various breeders on k9data however it would seem that not all information is updated on longevity of the lineage. For those I have seen, usually the grandparents' information would not be updated but there may be some information from the great grandparents and before. I guess if I do contact a breeder I could ask this question and see if they will be able to provide more information.

 

[Christen113]

Thank you, that is a beautiful quote.

I have been checking up the dams and sires from various breeders on k9data however it would seem that not all information is updated on longevity of the lineage. For those I have seen, usually the grandparents' information would not be updated but there may be some information from the great grandparents and before. I guess if I do contact a breeder I could ask this question and see if they will be able to provide more information.

Depending on the ages, it may not be there because they're still alive. I would definitely ask the breeder if you're interested in a pedigree.

 

[DonaldGreens]

I'm very sorry for your loss. I saw this quote when I lost Lacey and it hit home.
“There is a cycle of love and death that shapes the lives of those who choose to travel in the company of animals. It is a cycle unlike any other. To those who have never lived through its turnings and walked its rocky path, our willingness to give our hearts with full knowledge that they will be broken seems incomprehensible. Only we know how small a price we pay for what we receive; our grief, no matter how powerful it may be, is an insufficient measure of the joy we have been given.”
― Suzanne Clothier, Bones Would Rain from the Sky: Deepening Our Relationships with Dogs

I always look at the longevity in a pedigree. If there are young deaths, I dig in further and see if they produced young deaths themselves and what the rest of the pedigree looks like. There's a balance and ideally, you want it all--great temperaments, structure, health, clearances, longevity, biddability, etc. You'll find people that say the longevity doesn't matter but there's a reason your own doctor will look at early family cancers (like breast or prostate) differently than they do late onset cancers and I generally find that there are some breeders that "outperform" others in terms of longevity. There's never a guarantee but we can at least try to stack the deck in our favor. Personally, my early versus late cut off is 10 years old. The Doberman Club of America gives a "longevity certificate" if all of the grandparents are over 10 and I'd love to see goldens start that.

Yes, it's common to see the same dogs in a pedigree. You seal the style with linebreeding but you cement the good and the bad genetics. They did a COI study in poodles and there's a loose correlation to lower COIs (6.25% and under) living longer than higher COIs but it's a pretty scattered chart. There are always going to be some long lived dogs with very high COIs and young deaths in low COIs. I think the dogs that make up a COI make a big difference and I would try to dig into the main COI contributors. I like to see those dogs over 10 as well.

Very valuable information! I just started to study and just bought a puppy and now I am collecting information!