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Yay, he took a great line and stayed close to the flyer station. I was very pleased. The pro thinks he is only half way trained as he still turned his head and thought about it. He said if he had flared it he would have known not to go near the station. But to me they are the same thing. One day is thinking about it and reacts to flaring it, the other thinks about it and turns his head towards the gun but never veers off line.
I say "hogwash" to the pro (okay, I know he's the pro and is probably good, but I'll nonetheless express my humble :p: opinion on this ... I don't mind being wrong :doh: ).

I would say "Super Job Proof" for NOT flaring! It's easy to teach a dog to not return to an old fall if you're not concerned about developing flaring! But to teach that concept and retain the confidence/courage to pass nearby the old fall and continue on his merry way to the long mark is something that ain't easy. It's a difficult balance (lots of concepts must be taught with great attention to maintaining balance). And I've seen in more than one dog the tendency to begin flaring the short mark while en route to a longer mark EVEN IF the trainer has conscientiously and strictly avoided applying pressure at or near a short gunner.

FTGoldens
 

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I say "hogwash" to the pro (okay, I know he's the pro and is probably good, but I'll nonetheless express my humble :p: opinion on this ... I don't mind being wrong :doh: ).

I would say "Super Job Proof" for NOT flaring! It's easy to teach a dog to not return to an old fall if you're not concerned about developing flaring! But to teach that concept and retain the confidence/courage to pass nearby the old fall and continue on his merry way to the long mark is something that ain't easy. It's a difficult balance (lots of concepts must be taught with great attention to maintaining balance). And I've seen in more than one dog the tendency to begin flaring the short mark while en route to a longer mark EVEN IF the trainer has conscientiously and strictly avoided applying pressure at or near a short gunner.

FTGoldens
I was thinking the same thing! to have a dog run tight to a short gun and not flair on the way to the long gun to me means the dog is confident in where it is going. but that is how i see it and could be wrong about that.
 

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Discussion Starter #103
well he said it was because Proof looked over at the short gun while running past it. Meaning he wasn't perfectly confident yet and thinking about it. But to me the dog that is flaring is also thinking about it, you know? Both dogs are not fully trained as he would call it. I guess I'd rather have the dog that runs close and keeps his line than the dog that flares even if he is looking at it. Just as long as he doesn't act on it.

but I could be wrong. It is an interesting subject
 

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well he said it was because Proof looked over at the short gun while running past it. Meaning he wasn't perfectly confident yet and thinking about it. But to me the dog that is flaring is also thinking about it, you know? Both dogs are not fully trained as he would call it. I guess I'd rather have the dog that runs close and keeps his line than the dog that flares even if he is looking at it. Just as long as he doesn't act on it.

but I could be wrong. It is an interesting subject

Of course he looked over at the short gun. He is smart, isn't he? He was just checking his bearings so he wouldn't make a mistake.
 

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aka Shelby
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Discussion Starter #106
Today was mid 70's mostly overcast. Pretty decent wind. Worked a water set up first.

First bird was mid range length going left to right, losing sight of the gun, coming out of the water with the short bird, right to them, blazing white in all its glory. Proof just did awesome. He was taking a fantastic line to the corner end of the pond but there was about 5 of hydro plant (don't remember the name) and Proof squared at the end I think because of it or maybe not, he is sneaky at getting out just right in front of the gun. This time he was still way way in front of the gun on of his personal bests on that. He ran past that short gun and lined the hell of the bird and snatched it right up. Second easy bird, left to right, and into another pond separated by a dike. Proof didn't cheat the other pond and got right in and got right to his bird. ON the way back, he dropped the bird to poop and then finished and started rolling all over the ground. UGH....why! Got on him for it after a toot toot didn't break his euphoria. After that, he got a bit squirrely at the line for the third long bird and I told the gunner to make noise. I got him by the tab and tried to not make a bit stink about it and just ignored him. Told hm to watch for his bird. It was all the way at the third pond, separated by another dike by down the shoreline. He marked it really well, took off, ran all the way down the land and entered not terribly. He should have gotten in before a hay bale but instead got in after it. Didn't make a stink because of what had just happened at the line but he went on to nail that bird to. All three of those birds he marked like a mofo.
Second series. Watched the long bird go down in cover. left to right.
Turned and ran a treacherous 280 yard or more blind through hay bales and slopes. It took a lot of work but got him there. Then came back watched a shorter bird go down, right to left and picked that up. Then had to remember the long bird after all that blind work. Sent him and he immediately started for the short bird. I stopped him right away and relined him and he went on to remember the long bird and picked it up. I got in trouble for that one. I don't know what I stopped him early but I should have waited for him to be committed in the area before bringing him back. I don't know what I was thinking!! Oh well, Proof had a decent training day. I am the one that needs a lot of work, ha ha!!
 

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aka Shelby
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Discussion Starter #107 (Edited)
Today was a nutty set up. off and on cloudy, humid and 75, storm moving in so pretty windy.
I say it is a nutty set up because when I first started training with these amazing field trainers, I thought their set ups were crazy hard. I had never seen anything so hard before in hunt tests. Then when Proof started running them and actually bringing back the chickens, I was amazed. But now Proof and the other young dogs are moving past those and the set ups are only getting harder. Also I'm seeing how the pieces are fitting together. All the concepts are meshing. What is really really nuts? Is realizing that this is just the beginning if we continue on this road.

So revisted a similar set up that we've done before but in a slightly different line and as well, we did this delayed triple. ( I think that is what it is called) The middle long mark was much further out too.

So first watch the super long mark go down. this is the mark that the gun is so far back behind this very big mound. They go down a steep hill to the water, swim across, and have to go super long past a short gun to a gun they cannot see until they get up a couple of slopes.
Proof watches the long bird go down. He did pretty good this time looking long. Okay, went down, turn to the right and in another pond watch a bird go down. This mark is his nemesis I swear. It cuts one corner of the pond, then goes over dike and down to the bottom pond and cuts that opposite corner to go out to the mark which landed in some cover. Well, Mr. Cheater. I swear. I sent him, took his angle down the slope then ran right past that water. Stopped and corrected brought him back. He did this like 4 or 5 times!! He has done this same type mark over and over. I think I will just have to work hard on cheating with him for the rest of my life.
Comes back in and is heeled to mark a third bird going down on a third pond to the left. Bird falls right to left and across the two corners of the ponds. This time, he did really really great. Even over exaggerated the water on the second pond. Coming back, thought he might try to cheat but nope. Comes back and has to remember that very long bird that he saw so long ago.
Lined him up and he did pick out the gun but trainer wanted arm since he had burned up so much memory on the cheating. BB gives arm and Proof goes downhill and across water. Instead of taking the right line he swam hard to the corner of the pond. ha ha. that kind of made me laugh. The trainer said he is trying to be a good dog doing what he knows to do, go to the corner of the pond. But NEVER in his life has he gone to the corner of the pond. He's always gotten out a few feet before. That is the running joke, we will catch him one day getting out early but so far he has always slid by. Perhaps this million times of cheating and getting corrected will resonate?? I doubt it.

Anyway He was behind the gun doing that but it was okay this mark was really tough. He got out and ran but there was a tractor loading hay bales that was to the left of the gun. They had just shown up. Proof saw that white truck and started running towards it so the BB made some noise and proof turned and ran around and got his bird. Normally would have let him hunt on that one but didn't want him going to that truck and getting hurt.

Anyway, that is all we did today. It took 5 hours to run this set up. LOL.

I did learn some good training on corrections on cheating. A lot of dogs were cheating, (not like Proof who wouldn't give that cheat up) and I also worked hard on correcting on the way back. You know what is amazing. The way that the trainer understands how to train a dog. So on the cheat back, The trainer said be ready he is going to cheat this corner coming back. So he walked me through specifically and the odd thing is that the dog knows what to do. I sat him and then gave a small nick and then set him on a straight back.....Totally not the right way to go or anything but sure enough Proof didn't take the straight back, he went straight into the water....Isn't that weird? You would think you would want to give an over into the water but nope!! totally counter intuitive.
 

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WOWWWWWWW crazy setup is right. WTG Shelby
Thanks for the pic
 
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Do you bring your binoculars to see what the heck your dog is doing? Or do you have bird boys that can call you in the walkie talkie and say hey? I look at the cheating corner and have no clue how I would keep a dog from not cheating, wow! You are doing amazing stuff!
 

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aka Shelby
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Discussion Starter #111
ha! I was just thinking I need to use binoculars now. My glasses do not cut it. I am going to get some new ones this April with my next exam so maybe that will help.

As far as the cheating stuff. that is why it took 5 hours to get this set up done. Almost all the dogs cheated and it is tedious training them not to cheat those corners but it has to be done. IN fact, these dogs have all be taught not to cheat, this is called, holiday season and pups getting loose. I guess you just have to keep on them forever. That is why it drives me nuts when people are all saying you shouldn't correct your dog until they have the cheating concepts 100% among other concepts. These are DOGS. They will NEVER have something down 100%. Shoot, us as people don't do stuff 100% all the time. Now, of course they should be taught what the concept is, but as far as having them 100% proofed....that will NEVER happen in the field. Too many other factors change every time and its impossible to proof it 100%. Therefore you must just maintain it with corrections or show them that yes, this is a new situation and corner but you still need to do it the way we taught you on that other pond...ha ha.
 

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I guess you just have to keep on them forever. That is why it drives me nuts when people are all saying you shouldn't correct your dog until they have the cheating concepts 100% among other concepts. These are DOGS. They will NEVER have something down 100%. Shoot, us as people don't do stuff 100% all the time. Now, of course they should be taught what the concept is, but as far as having them 100% proofed....that will NEVER happen in the field. Too many other factors change every time and its impossible to proof it 100%. Therefore you must just maintain it with corrections or show them that yes, this is a new situation and corner but you still need to do it the way we taught you on that other pond...ha ha.
Thank you for saying this. Sometimes I feel like people really think that once the dog has been trained for XYZ in the field it's concrete and you shouldn't have to revisit it. They are dogs and we are human and we all make mistakes.
 

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Discussion Starter #113
yes, you will have to revisit certain things for the dog's career. And also, it is impossible to create a viable FIELD dog without a lot of training and corrections. Remember, if you are playing this game realize the dogs are competing, not going against a standard. I want to play this game. Proof is capable of playing this game. I am willing to train the way he needs to be trained as long as he doesn't show signs of being sick of it. I'm not in this to just dabble and see how he will do at a derby. I'm in it to win. I can't afford to just play and have fun for the heck of it at a derby. Shoot, I can set up my own "derby" doubles and just have fun around here. If I am going to enter him I darn well want to know that he is capable of placing otherwise its just too much money to play. I know we may never place at all but by golly if we are going to enter we are going to be as prepared as possible and if he isn't cutting it at training, then I'm not going to waste my money at a test. And the training we are doing now is what is necessary to even finish a derby let alone place.
 

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Woooooo get it girl!!!!!!!
 
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Yes Ma'am. :D
A while back I think it was FT Golden who said something long the lines that if you want to shoot for FC/AFC then you have to start from the get go not a year down the line. I love how you are going after it. These setups you are running are amazing.I'm learning so much from your posts. Although not at this level you are making me think about my own training. A lot of the time I'm yep,yep,yep I get what she is doing but sometimes I have to try and wrap my head around it. This is a good thing.
 

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Discussion Starter #116
Holly sometimes I don't have my head wrapped about it either. no wait, sometimes isn't the right word. I would say nearly 50% of the time! If there is anything I write that sounds confusing just ask me. Its hard for me to portray exactly what we do on this journal.
 

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you keep doing what you do! Proofers is an awesome dog! you will be on the derby list in no time just keep training and pushing (i know you will) but i know you are trying you hardest and you have really become a student of the game you have taught me a lot in the last few months! keep up the good work and I'm your second biggest supporter behind matt!
 

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Group hug!!!!
 
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