[Belle's Mom]

I am thinking of switching foods and the food we are currently on has 24.5% protein and the food we are looking at has 33% protein. We have had some pancreas issues in the past and I want to make sure that it is mainly fat and fiber we need to watch with the pancreas or is it protein also? Would 33% protein be too much for a dog with a history of a pancreas flare?

Thanks

 

[BeauShel]

I dont have the information but coppers-mom has a pup that has had some pancreas issues. I will send her a note about the thread.

 

[DNL2448]

Sorry, I'm not help, but it is good your asking, I hope someone will be able to help.

 

[Belle's Mom]

Thanks

Coppers Mom and I PMed a bit back when Copper was on Hills w/d which has 18.9 protein. I am interested to see her thoughts on the 33% protein.

 

[Hudson]

Hi Bella's Mum,
Bella needs a low fat food, also perhaps a digestive aid. I had a naturapath consult after Asha's pancreatitis attack, as the vet could not offer advise to me any more than a low fat food, which Asha was not completely stable, she still had loose stools. The digestive aid is bought from the health shop and is a human one she has 1/2 half tablet with each meal. It has a digestive enzyme that aids digestion as food travel thru the pancreas. Hope that will be of help to Bella. Feel free to ask me any other questions if necessary.

 

[Jo Ellen]

So it's not the protein level so much as the fat?

 

[Penny & Maggie's Mom]

Here is an article that may prove helpful.http://www.dogaware.com/wdjlowfatdiets.html There is also an article on pancreatitis on dog aware.

 

[Jo Ellen]

Most senior and light (weight loss) diets are relatively low in fat, but look for those that are not also low in protein. Low-protein diets should be avoided, as they can increase the risk of both hyperlipidemia and pancreatitis. Diets that are low in both protein and fat are mostly carbohydrates. Dogs get more nutritional value from protein than from carbohydrates, so it’s better to feed a diet that is higher in protein and therefore lower in carbohydrates.

But the article does recommend that for dogs still recovering from acute pancreatitis, the protein level shouldn't exceed 30%.

I'm really not sure which way I would go. I don't think Belle is still recovering, is she? The article does say that dogs can often return to a normal diet.

 

[Belle's Mom]

Belle is doing great now. The only issue is the low fat high fiber food we switched to is causing her to poop at least 4 times per day (they are good solid piles though but it is a lot of poop) and we are trying to cut back on the number of times she poops per day. We are considering a grainfree food with a little less fiber but if has higher protein and we want to make sure the protein does not hurt the pancreas.

 

[Belle's Mom]

Meant to add 2 more things -

1) P&M Mom - thanks for the link I am going to read it right now

2) I do wonder if Belle had a true pancreatitis flare or if it was a mild one or if it was something else as Belle was feeling quite a bit better after 3 hours on IV at the ER clinic and by the end of the day at the regular vet she was jumping and crazy again. From what I have read on here most pancreatitis flares seem to last several days and not just 8 hours. Also her pancreas numbers were just a little elevated, not thru the roof like others I have read about on here. But to be conservatove we are treating it as a flare and trying to feed accordingly.

 

[Jo Ellen]

It took me a long time to feel comfortable giving Daisy any significant amount of water, after her bloat last winter. I still am very careful and if it feels like to me that she's drinking too long, I make her stop.

It takes awhile to recover from scares like this, especially when we don't really know what caused the problem to begin with.

In your shoes, I would compromise. Maybe start off with a lower protein grain-free food and see how she does. If she does okay, you can increase it to the level you're thinking about, the 33%.

Baby steps

 

[Belle's Mom]

The issue I am having is finding a grain-free food that is low fat, low protein and higher in fiber (trying to hit all of the important facts I have read about pancreatitis). If I find a food with low protein I find it is higher in fat. I have looked at about 20 foods and so far am coming up empty on this front. I actually have an Excel spreadsheet with all the fat, fiber, protein, etc. I tried to attach it (cannot figure out how) so you can see the foods I checked out and offer any additional suggestions. I will just list the foods below:

Canidae Grain Free - All Life Stages
Canidae Grain Free - Salmon
Champion Pet Foods Acana - Grasslands (Lamb) (Canada)
Champion Pet Foods Acana - Light and Fit (Canada)
Champion Pet Foods Acana - Prairie Harvest (Chicken) (Canada)
Champion Pet Foods Orijen - Adult
Fromm - Grain Free Surf & Turf
Go Natural Grain Free Endurance Formula
Horizon Legacy Adult
Life's Abundance (healthypetnet.com) - must order on-line
Merricks Before Grain Salmon
Natura California Natural - Low Fat Rice and Chicken Meal (Limited Ingredients - 1 Protein,1 Fat, 1 Carb = Hypoallergenic)
Natura California Natural - Low Fat Rice and Lamb Meal (Limited Ingredients - 1 Protein,1 Fat, 1 Carb = Hypoallergenic)
Natura Evo - Herring and Salmon
Natura Evo - Red Meat (Beef, Buffalo, Lamb, and Venison)
Natura Evo - Turkey and Chicken
Natura Evo - Weight Management
Natura HealthWise - Chicken Meal and Oatmeal Weight Management
Natura Innova - Low Fat Adult
Natural Balance - Potato & Duck
Natural Balance - Sweet Potato & Venison
Nature's Variety Instinct - Rabbit
Nature's Variety Prairie - Venison Meal and Millet
Royal Canin - Potato and Venison
Science Diet Adult Light
Taste of the Wild - High Prairie (Bison and Venison)
Taste of the Wild - Pacific Stream (Fish)
Taste of the Wild - Wetlands (Fowl)
The Honest Kitchen - have to mix with water
Wellness Core Dry Ocean
Wellness Core Original
Wellness Core Reduced Fat
Wellness Simple Food Solutions - Rice and Salmon
Wellness Super Mix 5 - Healthy Weight

Any additional ideas?

 

[Jo Ellen]

I'm not sure where you live but is there a canine nutritionist in your area? Maybe you could contact one on-line?

Do you want to stay on a reduced calorie formula? Is this important for Belle?

 

[Belle's Mom]

We are in Dallas - so being a big city we probably have the nutritionist.

I assume that the calories directly correlate to the fat in the food but I am not sure of this. I am trying to keep her on a low fat diet.

 

[moverking]

Gosh, it's gonna be difficult to find low fat, low protein, higher fiber in grain free....removing the grains consequently raises the protein at very least. I tried Canidae's grain free - ~26%...my two put on a significant amount of weight. When I reduced the amounts fed, it seemd like just a sprinkle of kibble.

Then I tried Natural Balance Venison and Sweet potato...that one was too little protein - 21%, I believe.

So possibly a food with sweet potato as the carb/fiber might work for Belle? Or go with a higher protein, give less kibble and add your own fiber...green beans, sweet potato, etc?

 

[Penny & Maggie's Mom]

Check out The Honest Kitchen... Force and Embark are grain free and a lesser protein level.... don't know about the fat though. www.thehonestkitchen.com This is a dehydrated raw which you reconstitute with water.

 

[coppers-mom]

HI Belle's Mom!

I haven't been on since Friday so missed your thread. Luckily Beaushell sent me a PM (thanks Carol).

I would be very careful about changing Belle's food. Her episode is not at all like copper's two have been (hospitalized for 4 - 5 days pancreas level (whatever that is) was >2500) both times. The first time (3 years ago this december) was pretty bad but his last one was really, really bad and it was caused by a change in dog food whereas the first was from pork scraps (I didn't know any better back then). Every time they have pancreatitis they get more prone to having it again.

It culd not be definitely determined just what caused Copper's last episode. they were not sure he would make it and it cost >$1700.
Here are the various possible reasons:
1. change in protein from chicken to lamb (was stated to be the most likely reason)
2. Increase in fat from 12% to 16%. (good chance, but not as likely as the protein source change).
3. Duramax - he had just started it aoubt 4 -5 days before (very slight chance, but a possibility)
4. Changing his food too quickly and not giving his body a chance to adapt. I mixed the foods for only about 4 days and he liked to well I just changed over at that point.

It could be a combination of these factors. I just don't know and he saw numerous vets and specialists during his last episode.

If you do change, do it very slowly (at least a week and preferrably two weeks) and I would strongly recommend you have her levels checked during the food change if the vet says they can see a change that quickly. I don't know if it is a gradual change or not. by the time you notice symptoms it has probably progressed to a full blown attack and at that point all you can do is put them on IVs and hope they recover with supportive care.

I also would probably give her a mixture of the two foods for good rather than change completely over.

Good luck. I also recommend you talk this over with your vet and see what he thinks. Copper is older, was overweight and had had pancreatitis previously when I changed the food. My BassettX was changed at the same time and he had no problem with it, but he is not quite 3, is not overweight and had not had pancreatitis before.
You just never know when it will hit.

 

[coppers-mom]

Even though I wrote a tome, I left one thought (at least) out. I don't know if the new food had a higher protein or just a different protein source, but I would suspect that higher protein at least might cause a problem.

 

[Belle's Mom]

Her food for the entire 2 years prior to the episode last month was Natural Balance Duck and Potato which has 21% protein, min 10% fat, and max 3% fiber. During her episode Belle's pancreas level was 676 on the pancreatitis test which the vet said was not high enough to confirm pancreatitis as he only confirmed a diagnosis of pancreatits when it was a lot higher than Belle - thus would not confirm pancreatitis. I asked the vet what may have caused this and about her food and he mentioned maybe a high fiber low fat diet. Out of fear, I did change her food after the episode - the vet had mentioned the Hills w/d for high fiber low fat but then he compared the Science Diet Adult Light which he said had similar ingredients and levels to w/d and the vet said we could get cheaper than the prescription w/d. Thus we moved her to the SD Adult Light - 24.5 % protein, 8.8% fat, 14.6% fiber. I am thinking the pooping 4x per day may be related to all the SD fillers, corn, etc.....Thus I was looking at the Wellness Core Reduced Fat which is grain free, 9-10% fat, 8.5% fiber, and 33% protein. I love everything in the Core except the higher protein level which I am concerned about. We have been giving Belle green beans for about 3 months now and she is doing well with that.

I love my vet but he is similar to other vets in that he really only knows about Hills and SD and recommends that. When I mentioned the Wellness Core he said he did not know enough about it to speak about that specific food.

 

[Jo Ellen]

I would ask him specifically about the higher protein levels. Ask him if Belle can have a food that is low fat but 33% protein.

And then I might look up canine nutritionist in your yellow pages.