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Can I get another pair of eyes on this pairing. I’m really excited about it - From Goldnote north of Toronto ?. Thanks

Dam - So Pisa to meet you “Avery”

Sire - CH. Chrys-Haefen Look at Kyon “Lukas”
 

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Avery has no OFA record w the CKC # on k9data..
Lukas is all good.

The odd thing on Avery- look @ change record on k9data: Change history for Goldnote's So Pisa To Meet You they input OFA, twice, and Lesley took it off. This was over a year ago. There is nothing on OFA. It costs barely anything to list heart/eyes...and it is a part of the CoE to list them, not just do them but list them on our only verifiable database, OFA. As well, they input OFA Good/normal for hips & elbows twice, and they are just not there- by name or reg number. To my eye, he is fine, she is not.
 

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I am expecting more heated emails. The owner of K9data has been clear that claiming any of the Big 4 clearances and not being able to verify them on the OFA site is not cool, especially after they have produced a litter.
 

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Goldnote - Avery

This is Bruce Brown from Goldnote Golden Retrievers. Avery holds an OFA preliminary consultation report from the age of 23 months. Her hips were rated as good and her elbows as normal on application number 1953975. This is a valid clearance for breeding under the Golden Retriever Club of Canada's (GRCC) code of ethics. The Ontario Veterinary College did hip and elbow clearances for many years, using 18 months as the minimum age requirement.

In speaking with a respected breeder and member of the GRCC it was explained to me that as the Ontario Veterinary College did clearances beginning at 18 months of age, the GRCC continues to recognize this benchmark, provided the x-rays are read by an appropriately qualified governing body. All of these criteria apply to Avery.

All puppy families can request to see these clearances, and are given copies of all clearances during our puppy placement process.

With regards to K9data, I now realize that if I indicate clearances as "preliminary", it shouldn’t cause a problem with K9data going forward.
 

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Puddles
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Bruce I'm a rookie by breeder standards but not sure I interpret the code the same way unless this dog received prelims before 2012. The only mention of 18 months is with penn hip. The referenced college dissolved 7 years ago.... why wouldn't you use current coe standards of 24 months? I'm just asking from a learning POV.

Section 2 BREEDING PRACTICES

Selection of Breeding Stock:
The breeder must ensure that all breeding is carried out with the Canadian Kennel Club breed standard in mind.
The breeder uses only healthy adult dogs and bitches that are at least 24 months of age that are physically and mentally sound.
In consideration of the aim of the overall improvement of the breed, the breeder must decline any breeding when the presence of any undesirable or potentially debilitating genetic or behavioural trait is known or suspected in either the sire or the dam. As a minimum requirement, all breeding stock should hold:
A certificate of examination from the Ontario Veterinary College (OVC) prior to its discontinuation of its registry in 2012, indicating no evidence of hip dysplasia; or a report of examination from the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) indicating no evidence of hip dysplasia at the minimum age of 24 months; or a report of examination from BVA (British Veterinary Association) indicating no evidence of hip dysplasia at a minimum age of 24 months, or a report of examination from PennHip at a minimum age of 18 months indicating no evidence of hip dysplasia; or an appropriate clearance from the dog’s country of residency.
 

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This is Bruce Brown from Goldnote Golden Retrievers. Avery holds an OFA preliminary consultation report from the age of 23 months. Her hips were rated as good and her elbows as normal on application number 1953975. This is a valid clearance for breeding under the Golden Retriever Club of Canada's (GRCC) code of ethics. The Ontario Veterinary College did hip and elbow clearances for many years, using 18 months as the minimum age requirement.

In speaking with a respected breeder and member of the GRCC it was explained to me that as the Ontario Veterinary College did clearances beginning at 18 months of age, the GRCC continues to recognize this benchmark, provided the x-rays are read by an appropriately qualified governing body. All of these criteria apply to Avery.

All puppy families can request to see these clearances, and are given copies of all clearances during our puppy placement process.

With regards to K9data, I now realize that if I indicate clearances as "preliminary", it shouldn’t cause a problem with K9data going forward.
"As a minimum requirement, all breeding stock should hold:
A certificate of examination from the Ontario Veterinary College (OVC) prior to its discontinuation of its registry in 2012, indicating no evidence of hip dysplasia; or a report of examination from the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) indicating no evidence of hip dysplasia at the minimum age of 24 months[/B]; or a report of examination from BVA (British Veterinary Association) indicating no evidence of hip dysplasia at a minimum age of 24 months, or a report of examination from PennHip at a minimum age of 18 months indicating no evidence of hip dysplasia; or an appropriate clearance from the dog’s country of residency."

Nowhere do I see any 'out' for prelims.
A prelim is not a clearance.
 

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Kate
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So I'm just going to ask because I'm wondering. Why would you do prelims at 23 months? One more month and it's official, right? I understand prelims are reviewed by one vet and not the 3 required by OFA.
Very likely the girlie went into season and the owner did not want to wait another 6-12 months to breed her.

*I have no comment on breeding a dog because it's close enough. :) My opinions on breeding too early and without full clearances have already been expressed over and over.
 

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Puddles
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Megora I totally agree but with 11 females you would think he had options. This was not his 1st litter, wonder why he followed the advice from another breeder, hasn't he read the Coe? Beautiful dogs and he is doing much better than most "british style" breeders in this country but why not just get final clearances and fix the problem?
 

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Esquire Golden Retrievers
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Hip and elbow clearances aren't just a random procedure that must be done for the sake of doing them, like a secret handshake. The whole point is to ensure that the dog being bred is not dysplastic. Prelims at 23 months do that every bit as well as finals at 24 months. I would say that there is a 0% chance of a "good" at 23 months during into a "mild" at 24 months. A dog with a "good" prelim at 23 months is fine to breed.

Corley, EA, et al. Reliability of Early Radiographic Evaluation for Canine Hip Dysplasia Obtained from the Standard Ventrodorsal Radiographic Projection. JAVMA. Vol 211, No. 9, November 1997.

Let's try to keep in mind the purpose of these things, and not simply react reflexively. I understand that some folks are simply rule-followers in the sense that the rule itself is more important than the reason for the rule. But in a case like this, with a prelim of "good" at 23 months, I think you can very reliably conclude that this bitch is a proper breeding animal, at least insofar as hip dysplasia is concerned.
 

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Kate
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It is cutting corners and looks bad long term if the breeder has not done finals asap.

If everyone is cutting corners and saying "Do as I say, not as I do" to other breeders... no wonder we have so many breeders out there who elsewhere get pretty hysterical about doing prelims when a dog is about 12 months old so they can start breeding the dogs a year sooner. They do it once because it's a special case, or it's every dog they own.
 

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Esquire Golden Retrievers
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So, this is an example of rote rule-following. Of course, I understand the slippery slope argument. But we are looking at a particular breeding and trying to help the OP figure out the health risks of buying a puppy from this litter. All I'm saying is that this bitch is not dysplastic, and is as safe for puppies as if she had gotten x-rayed a month later.

And, by the way, if prelims were done because she came into season at 23 months, it would be a bad idea to do OFA x-rays at 24 months while she is pregnant, and therefore re-shooting her at 24 months would be a bad thing to do for the puppies. I'm really not a fan of x-rays during pregnancy, not even the very light ones to count spines, though I have done those.
 

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Kate
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And, by the way, if prelims were done because she came into season at 23 months, it would be a bad idea to do OFA x-rays at 24 months while she is pregnant....
Obviously. :| But you need to redo and get finals as soon as you can. Not 24 months, but likely 28+ months.

So, this is an example of rote rule-following.
Dana, I was responding to your comment where you are essentially recommending breeding dogs on prelims. The arguments about prelims being low risk based on percentages has been used to boost decisions to breed dogs anywhere between 12 months and 24 months.

What this means is people who start cutting corners for themselves or defending friends who do... end up shooting down their own arguments when it comes to stopping other people from wide-open breeding too-young dogs because they want to make $$$$ off the dogs sooner vs later.
 

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I'm a rule follower.
I think we all know that! But in this case, I don't think there is anything that'd come of it for the puppies doing a prelim a month before breeding. However, the breeder SHOULD go get 'legal' clearances now and not just ride on prelims that are long gone on OFA. I don't read the CKC rules as being OK w prelims.
 

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Kate
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I'm a rule follower.
I think we all know that! But in this case, I don't think there is anything that'd come of it for the puppies doing a prelim a month before breeding. However, the breeder SHOULD go get 'legal' clearances now and not just ride on prelims that are long gone on OFA. I don't read the CKC rules as being OK w prelims.
The dog in question is almost 3.5 years old.
 

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My only concern, strictly as a puppy buyer, would be that they intentionally did the prelims because they were questioning the rating and felt they got lucky with the good rating. They then didn't want them reviewed by the customary board of 3, or didn't want to risk repeating them at a later date. I'm not saying this applies to this case, but if I saw this on any dog these would be my private thoughts.

I am admittedly a stickler for clearances right now due to having a guy from multiple generations of clearances with more then one genetic issue. I know that things happen and there are no guarantees, but I ask more questions and dig a little deeper now then I use to.

I would want to see that the finals where done by the time the dog was 3.
 

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Puddles
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Dana I totally agree this particular dog is probably safe to breed. I have one of those puppies where the breeder did clearances with pups in utero and as it was explained to me at the eye clinic, probably what caused her geographic retinal dysplasia... radiation exposure early on.

But from a buyers perspective I also agree with following the rules. It's a standard, not a suggestion. Because there is nothing that shows up on OFA I wouldn't even consider this breeder and would assume "having OFA" was a false statement... prelims are prelims and pretty sure the litter (or the next) netted enough income to get final clearances by now. Maybe not at 24 months but why not get them so you can properly post on K9data and have the proper link to OFA present?
 

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Esquire Golden Retrievers
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I agree that this bitch, who is apparently now 3.5 years old, should get final clearances, especially if she is to be bred again, but even if not. But that's not the issue I was addressing. If the concern is whether this bitch might fail hips and pass that failing grade onto her get, that's not a possibility here, and it is safe to buy a puppy out of this girl. Two separate issues imho.
 
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