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Be careful about verification before handing over your money. The photo with Blue puppy looking into the camera looks very much like one I’ve seen on a scam site.
 

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GRF needs to have an 😮 reaction for posts. This is quite interesting - and scary!
I hope I’m wrong.
A few years ago, a colleague was excited about the interstate purchase of two pedigree kittens. I knew the breed wasn’t available in the country, and said so, but my colleague was convinced I was wrong. After the “breeders” kept adding on further transportation costs, she finally googled their advertised address. It was an abandoned warehouse.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 · (Edited)
Yes, in Europe they test for Hips and Elbows much younger than here. Also it is uncommon to see breeders overseas getting eye and heart certifications. The US standard for health certifications is more stringent as far as maturity, eyes and hearts. That is why when I imported from Italy, I not only got full health certifications but insisted on an Echocardiogram by a Cardiologist. It made me feel better about risk since the depth of heart testing (generational) is not the same as what you would expect to see in a US based pedigree.
Be careful about verification before handing over your money. The photo with Blue puppy looking into the camera looks very much like one I’ve seen on a scam site.
 

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Interesting, and scary! I would love to know where you might have seen this.

This breeder has fantastic reviews on their FB page, they also have a FB page dedicated to families that own puppies from that breeder and everyone is extremely pleased with their service and quality of dogs. I have talked with several owners.

I will continue to do my research. Feel free to browse their Facebook page.
I’m sorry; I can’t remember where.

I’m so relieved to find that you have done your research! Best wishes for a happy future with your puppy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
I’m sorry; I can’t remember where.

I’m so relieved to find that you have done your research! Best wishes for a happy future with your puppy.
My husband and I were set to get a dog from an incredible breeder but long story short, the stars never aligned. We sort of found this breeder on the whim, so I am doing as much research as possible. I truly wish I would have been a part of GRF sooner, but do feel good about who we've selected.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Blue appears to have more stop right now- but that will change lots before 8 weeks and even more by adulthood. You can't really choose a headpiece @ 6.5 wks. Green appears to have the shorter muzzle (again now- which isn't really relevant) and a better underjaw (but that may be the photos). I prefer the eye on Green way more than Blue. So many more things are more important than a headpiece and we can't see those things, like shoulder layback, in these photos. Whichever you choose, you will love.
Thank you for your advice, this truly was helpful. I was leaning towards Mr. Green based on looks, but we decided with Mr. Blue, as he has the temperament we were looking for.
 

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My husband and I were set to get a dog from an incredible breeder but long story short, the stars never aligned. We sort of found this breeder on the whim, so I am doing as much research as possible. I truly wish I would have been a part of GRF sooner, but do feel good about who we've selected.
I am not sure you should feel good, I know I don’t. There are a lot of issues here that you may end up having to deal with in any puppy you bring home. For a clearly color only focused breeder, they are better than most but I would never recommend them. There are issues with under age dogs, expired eye exams, missing hip certifications, not always choosing to have dogs actually identified as they get certifications, name miss matches and more.

Who are the parent dogs for this puppy?
I’d rather give you the pertinent information for this puppy than shot gun you with the deficiencies and inconsistencies in this breeders whole program.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
I am not sure you should feel good, I know I don’t. There are a lot of issues here that you may end up having to deal with in any puppy you bring home. For a clearly color only focused breeder, they are better than most but I would never recommend them. There are issues with under age dogs, expired eye exams, missing hip certifications, not always choosing to have dogs actually identified as they get certifications, name miss matches and more.

Who are the parent dogs for this puppy?
I’d rather give you the pertinent information for this puppy than shot gun you with the deficiencies and inconsistencies in this breeders whole program.
Malibu is the Mom and Enzo is the Dad.
 

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Malibu and Enzo were both bred far before 2 years old, actually very soon after they turned one year old. Meaning neither has adequate clearances.
 

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882629

882631


Neither dog has heart or eye certifications. Both can’t have appropriate hip and elbow certifications until later this year. Neither can be found on AKC at this time.

Both are descendants of this girl who looks to have likely failed her hips in the US.
Good on her owner for trying to get US appropriate health certifications on her. But we see the elbow was passed but the hip remains an unverifiable A/A from the European testing scheme. This unfortunately happens. Since European standards test at the younger age of 12 months, we see that too often retesting at maturity of 24 months or more that use in the US shows us issues that can’t always be detected earlier.

Since both parents only have unverifiable OFA prelims done quite young, it is possible these dogs could fail at maturity too.

This is exactly the poor breeding decisions we unfortunately have come to expect from color focused breeders. The whole program is not great and it looks like it is getting worse and not better, since the oldest dogs listed are closer to compliance with US health certifications than the younger dogs.

If you decide to shoulder the risk this breeder is placing on the puppies with less than appropriate health certification choices, please get full coverage pet insurance that does not have an extended wait for dysplasia.

These are health risky puppies and with no verifiable health certifications, a reasonable price would be $1000. This breeder is really not giving you any additional value above the “we just wanted her to have puppies” or “have the kids experience the miracle of birth” type breeders.
 

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I'm so sad- another one bites the dust... was hoping the breeder was as reported, and doing CoE clearances not breeding babies...
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
View attachment 882629
View attachment 882631

Neither dog has heart or eye certifications. Both can’t have appropriate hip and elbow certifications until later this year. Neither can be found on AKC at this time.

Both are descendants of this girl who looks to have likely failed her hips in the US.
Good on her owner for trying to get US appropriate health certifications on her. But we see the elbow was passed but the hip remains an unverifiable A/A from the European testing scheme. This unfortunately happens. Since European standards test at the younger age of 12 months, we see that too often retesting at maturity of 24 months or more that use in the US shows us issues that can’t always be detected earlier.

Since both parents only have unverifiable OFA prelims done quite young, it is possible these dogs could fail at maturity too.

This is exactly the poor breeding decisions we unfortunately have come to expect from color focused breeders. The whole program is not great and it looks like it is getting worse and not better, since the oldest dogs listed are closer to compliance with US health certifications than the younger dogs.

If you decide to shoulder the risk this breeder is placing on the puppies with less than appropriate health certification choices, please get full coverage pet insurance that does not have an extended wait for dysplasia.

These are health risky puppies and with no verifiable health certifications, a reasonable price would be $1000. This breeder is really not giving you any additional value above the “we just wanted her to have puppies” or “have the kids experience the miracle of birth” type breeders.
I can't thank you enough for looking in to this. Clearly a beginner here, but learning a lot along the way. Sounds like my husband and I have a lot to discuss.

Just for my understanding, where does it show that she likely failed her hips based on the pedigree below? I would like to learn more. I saw FCI AA and was under impression that was a good score.

Any more insight you can provide is helpful. Thank you!
 

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I too would make that assumption on hips, since the foreign clearances have all been replaced except hips. Hips and elbows are done @ same time and I wish we didn't have the option of not disclosing fails, since it is a rare person who agrees to disclose them. The owner COULD send the foreign clearances to OFA, and in that way, if they are verifiable and legible (the issue) we would know when those rads were done and assessed. The elbows were supposedly normal in the foreign assessment- yet they were replaced w US clearances at an appropriate age. I'd guess, if it were my concern, that these AA clearances were done as a puppy and the bitch failed as an adult. It's really the only reasonable guess, given the info we have.
 

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A/A is a good score, but it is clear she was tested with OFA for elbows.

The fact that there is no matching OFA hip or even a PennHIP claimed on K9Data shows that she was either not tested for hips or failed and her owners suppressed the failure by not agreeing to disclosing failing results. Since the submission of hip and elbows at the same time to OFA is about a 95% of the time thing, the results we see here will read as a hidden failure as the statistically probable reason. I know of no breeder, not even bad one who test elbows and not hips.

The other bad thing about the A/A rating, is how do you know it is real and correct? Very few countries have what we have in regards to a public verification database where input is protected. K9Data is all user entry. That means the users can put whatever they want. The admin‘s are based in North America and do a great job of verifying health certifications for here but, they do not generally have a way to verify any claims of testing in countries with no verification database. I have run into issues on foreign dogs where hip and elbow certifications were inaccurate or unfortunately good results were purchased. I’m not saying that these results are a lie, simply that there is no way to verify them and that is concerning considering there seems to be a high likelihood that this dog failed her OFA hips. Absolutely is possible she had good hips as a very young dog since European testing happens at a very young ages and OFA happens at a more mature age. This is also why those 12 month and 14 month OFA a pre-lims worry me. Also OFA pre-lims do not go through the same process as the final certification does through OFA. So a pre-lim is not the same as an actual OFA certification.
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
I can't thank you enough for looking in to this. Clearly a beginner here, but learning a lot along the way. Sounds like my husband and I have a lot to discuss.

Just for my understanding, where does it show that she likely failed her hips based on the pedigree below? I would like to learn more. I saw FCI AA and was under impression that was a good score.

Any more insight you can provide is helpful. Thank you!
Adding on to this! The same breeder has a planner litter this upcoming summer. These dogs appear to have all of the clearances, and are much older. The breeder never said it, but I'm starting to think Enzo/Malibu might have been an 'oopsie'. No where on their site was this listed as a 'planned litter.' Still weary, but something to note.

Dad: Dustin

Mom: Bailey

Feel free to take a look at their pedigrees. Let me what you think.
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
I too would make that assumption on hips, since the foreign clearances have all been replaced except hips. Hips and elbows are done @ same time and I wish we didn't have the option of not disclosing fails, since it is a rare person who agrees to disclose them. The owner COULD send the foreign clearances to OFA, and in that way, if they are verifiable and legible (the issue) we would know when those rads were done and assessed. The elbows were supposedly normal in the foreign assessment- yet they were replaced w US clearances at an appropriate age. I'd guess, if it were my concern, that these AA clearances were done as a puppy and the bitch failed as an adult. It's really the only reasonable guess, given the info we have.

Thank you for laying this out, I understand the concern much better now. I have asked the breeder for an update on their testing and to provide any documentation against it. The age factor still concerns me however.

See thread below about the other upcoming litter of Dustin and Bailey. Based on what you know about clearances and testing, what are your thoughts?
 

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The breeder never said it, but I'm starting to think Enzo/Malibu might have been an 'oopsie'.

Based on the breeder’s behavior I would say it is not an oops.

Iris - bred at 1 year, 5 months
Sage/Nevada - bred at 1 year, 6 months
Remington - Bred at 1 year 4 months
Dustin- bred at 1 year, 7 months

She chose to purchase Bailey whose parents were bred to produce her at 10 (mom) and 11 (dad) months of age.

This pattern of behavior seems to indicate a complete disregard for age appropriate breeding on top of the missing health certifications these age mean.
 

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Based on the breeders behavior I would say it is not an oops.

Iris - bred at 1 year, 5 months
Sage/Nevada - bred at 1 year, 6 months
Remington - Bred at 1 year 4 months
Dustin- bred at 1 year, 7 months

She chose to purchase Bailey whose parents were bred to produce her at 10 (mom) and 12 (dad) months of age.

This pattern of behavior seems to indicate a complete disregard for age appropriate breeding on top of the missing health certifications these age mean.
Sound like a puppy mill to anyone?
 
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