Golden Retriever Dog Forums banner

1 - 20 of 45 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
739 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I am disappointed that we have no Goldens qualified for the 2016 National Retriever Championship! Frankly, that ticks me off quite a bit! I think I'll go home and develop a great training plan for 2017 so I can go next year!

Even without any Goldens, the NRC will still be worth keeping an eye on during the week. The panel of judges is top-notch and the grounds are historically very good (apparently they have received some rain, so the ponds should be full). I hope that we on GRF can collaboratively discuss each of the tests ... why the judges set it up as they did, what factors are the judges utilizing, what should we expect the dogs to do, why are the dogs doing what they seem to be doing, etc.

Below is the link to the main page for the National, which contains links to other related sites. There will be plenty to learn from this event. Heck, I've been training for and running field trials for thirty years and I've already learned a new term: pre, pre-National training week. (I learned it from a video on the "Blog" page.)

2016 NRC - The Retriever News

Later,
FTGoldens
 

·
aka Shelby
Joined
·
1,547 Posts
I look forward to discussing this with you. While I'm training Proof to ultimately one day run all age set ups I am still learning how these concepts we learn now relate to those set ups later. This is so beyond anything in the hunt test world and that is really all I had any prior experience and it still really blows my mind. I believe it will blow this forums mind as well if they are truly interested in understanding what these amazing athlete dogs are capable of.

It is a disappointment there are no Golden's this year competing. Hopefully next year some of our great Golden's will be there. At the National level it comes down to a lot of luck as all the dogs are so talented already. One day it is a dream of mine to have a dog there. And definitely a dream I'll be there in the National Amateur.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
739 Posts
Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Do you know if there are any videos available to watch?
I suspect that they will post some videos, as it typically the case. Due to the distances of the retrieves, however, it's hard to get a really good video of the dogs' performance of the retrieves, but we can get an idea. Plus, the still photos and the descriptions of the performances are very informative.

The videos get better and better each year...we may even see some drone-shots.
Already posted are a couple of videos in which trainers/handlers are interviewed, they are worth watching.

In the already-posted pre-National training photos, you may note the assembled training groups ... several of the TOP SHELF PROS have joined together for this week of training. This happens every year, generally with the same pros joining each other for the event. [There's often an "Amateurs Only" training group as well, for those of us who train our own dogs and qualify without the involvement of a pro. It's typically a pretty small group because so few amateurs qualify for this event.]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
739 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
If you want to feel some jealousy, check out the 2016 NRC Training Grounds Booklet ... there are some beautiful properties being used for pre-National training. The Carruth's water world, near the back of the booklet, looks incredible ... reminds me of Rex Carr's "CL2."
 

·
aka Shelby
Joined
·
1,547 Posts
FTgoldens....So on Thursday R told me that often times the dogs mark the gunner, not the mark on long retired guns. Walking back from the throw will often tell a lot about if the dog marked the bird or the gun. Reading the blog report seems to show that indeed a lot of dogs marked off the gun on the LR. I asked H about this and he said it would appear so. What do you think about that?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
739 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
FTgoldens....So on Thursday R told me that often times the dogs mark the gunner, not the mark on long retired guns. Walking back from the throw will often tell a lot about if the dog marked the bird or the gun. Reading the blog report seems to show that indeed a lot of dogs marked off the gun on the LR. I asked H about this and he said it would appear so. What do you think about that?
Yes indeed, dogs will often remember the location of the gunner more than the location of the mark.
Interestingly, in Derby stakes, marking off the gunner can sometimes get the dog in trouble because (unfortunately!) hooking a gunner in a Derby will often knock the pup down a placement or two or three; however, once the dog starts running all-age stakes, particularly with retired gunners, hooking a gunner "ain't no big deal" ... in fact, many all age judges believe that a dog cannot hook a retired gunner because it is, well ... not there (at least in theory). And to take this point one step farther, some pros teach their dogs to remember the location of the gunner by simply having a "gunner" in the field, have the gunner plant a bird within throwing distance of the gunner, have the gunner move into what would be typical throwing position, then showing the dog the gunner, then retiring the gunner, then sending the dog for the "mark." Of course, there would be no "mark" because the gunner didn't throw a bird, so the only thing that the dog can rely on is the location of the gunner, which is gone by the time the dog is sent for the "mark." (This drill also helps in situations when your dog misses seeing a throw.)
FTGoldens
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
739 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
(I'm not at the NRC, so my thoughts are based only on what I read and the photos I see on the blog.)

The first series was a bit out of the ordinary for a national, which typically starts with a double and a blind. So a triple was unusual, but it was a good test. The first of the difficulties in the first series was the use of two hen pheasants, which throw off almost no scent, on the two retired marks. The second difficulty was asking the dogs to run along the top of a levee when en route to the middle retired mark ... dogs do not like running along the top of ridges like that. Six dogs were eliminated by the first series (it stinks to be dropped so early!).

As for the second series, the middle retired and right retired marks are very tight, plus the line to each of those marks goes over a small peninsula ... it takes some guts for a dog to cross that peninsula twice. (Of course, you pretty much have to pull that short right retired out as the second retrieve.)
On this test, the dogs which aren't doing well are generally going to the right on the middle retired. When looking at the test diagram and reading the description, this reaction would be expected. A few will likely avoid taking that same line and push off to the right real early when en route to the middle retired. Then those that start out taking the line between the left flyer and the right retired are likely to suck around behind that right retired after they pass it ... that's just what dogs do (i.e., they will suck around behind an object, whether a tree, a point of cover or the location of an already picked up bird) ... in addition to that tendency, they will be pushed to the right by the mere presence of the water on the left ... plus, once they pass the right retired, the area to the right looks like a beautiful boulevard to run into ... and finally, the slight breeze from the left will push them to the right.

FTGoldens
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,186 Posts
Yikes! Series 2 is tight, tight, scary tight.
I thought that they might get pull to the left on the water out by the LR but it looks like to many early factors are pulling them right before they get there.

How is hooking a gun scored in the Qual?
 

·
aka Shelby
Joined
·
1,547 Posts
Ha! 70 yard flyers!! This is crazy because on Thursday R and me were discussing all the set ups about judging and I asked what about a close flyer, how bad is that for the dog? I wanted to talk about how influential that is when screwing up a dogs concentration on the far marks and all of that. He said, that is kind of old school, they used to do it way more than they do it now but that it can be deadly. I said, around 50 60 yards and he said, oh no, further than that at least 100. Well, I guess the judges heard our conversation because 70 yards is really close!

Another thing is the splash on the bird!! R has been noticing a pattern right now about birds falling in the water again. Its a new "fade" going around here (I don't know about other parts of the country) and boy oh boy those birds landing in the water are really messing with all different aged dogs!! This test is LOADED! I can't wait to see R and talk about all of this!

And just to make sure I'm doing this right, cause I just woke up and looked, I would go for the flyer, then the easy right bird and down the middle for the long punch bird? I don't know it doesn't look that way on this test.

Oh look here is Al discussing it with diagrams, broke it down pretty well. hope he has the "midas" touch this week, ha ha.

[YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]

And as for hooking guns in derby. Well, it depends on the test. AT the easier tests its a deal breaker. At a Baker test (and that is what they call them down here when Baker shows up) hooking a gun can still get a first place.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
739 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Yikes! Series 2 is tight, tight, scary tight.
I thought that they might get pull to the left on the water out by the LR but it looks like to many early factors are pulling them right before they get there.

How is hooking a gun scored in the Qual?
That's a tough question for field trial judging because, unlike a hunt test where the dogs are judged against a standard (i.e., Pass/Fail), each dog's performance is judged against the other dogs' performances.
That said, hooking a gun will be noted in the drawing each judge makes in his/her book, but it's not a huge deal ... and if all other dogs hook the gun, it doesn't make any difference whatsoever.
There's a not infrequent discussion about hooking a gun that goes like this ... if the throw is severe angle back and Dog 1 passes near the gun but behind it, is that better or worse than the dog that "bananas" into the mark from the front side of the gunner?
And as I mentioned before, if the gun is retired, there's no such thing as "hooking the gun" because it's not present.
FTGoldens
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
739 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Holy Cow, what a difference a day makes!

For some reason which is not apparent from what is posted so far, the test has become more challenging ... there's now a higher % of handles/double-handles/pick-ups!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
739 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Double blinds (one land, one water) for the 3rd and 4th series.
Notably, the judges did not "accessorize" either blind with a poison bird, dry shot or gunner in the field.

The land blind appears to require that the dog have discipline to hold a line on the side of a slope; it also sounds like a loopy sit could get a dog in trouble.
The water blind, with a no-see'm entry, has only a sliver of water for the dog to get in, and that sliver seems to be out at a pretty good distance ... one of the test dogs missed the sliver.

It's very difficult to set up blinds, especially land blinds, to challenge the dogs so much as to cause an elimination ... they are just so darned good on blinds!
But missing the water will get a dog tossed, and probably getting lost behind a mound will be a big ding.
It'll be interesting to see how this one goes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
739 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
The drone shots of the 3rd and 4th series are great and show how far out that corner of the pond is from the line.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,186 Posts
Got it, retired gunners.

I was wondering pick up order in the 2nd too. In my hunt test training for this series would pick up outside, outside, inside. (We do train for primary selection too have that in my pocket.)
In FT's is it generally long bird first?????

Here in the 2nd I think Flyer first no matter how you train, too in your face.
It looks like some were picking up LR next. How amazing to be able to communicate that line past the tight MR.

Off to look at the double blinds.
 

·
aka Shelby
Joined
·
1,547 Posts
Holly, where I'm at in training this is how I'm told to pick up the birds. I'm told to pick up the go bird, then the short bird and then the long bird last. The reason for this is because if the dog is going to the long bird, it might change its mind and go to the short bird. That is fine, but then it burns its line to the long bird as in his head is thinking he already went that way for the short bird. As well, the dog picks up the long bird and should know better than to go back to the short bird and bounce off of it to go get the long bird.

NOW this is just what I "think" I'm understanding. Ftgoldens is the one to ask he knows 100% more than me!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,186 Posts
That's how I would have attempted it too Shelby.
Clear out the close stuff, then try to get them to focus on the long.
Wonder what was happening on the line with the dogs that picked up LR before the MR. Were the handlers working for it or were the dogs just looking out and giving it?
So interesting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
739 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
I was wondering pick up order in the 2nd too. In my hunt test training for this series would pick up outside, outside, inside. (We do train for primary selection too have that in my pocket.)
In FT's is it generally long bird first?????
Personally, I don't subscribe to the outside, outside, middle philosophy ... that'll get you in big trouble with an in-line triple, where you'd need to get the middle bird second. Generally, the order suggested by MOP (shortest, next shortest, then longest) is followed, although when you have a long flyer as the last bird down that pretty much goes out the window as well. So, it's best to teach the dog to go where sent ... PERIOD! At least mix up the order in training so the dog will be comfortable when picking up birds in a variety of orders.

It looks like some were picking up LR next. How amazing to be able to communicate that line past the tight MR.
Don't be too impressed with that communication ... I can guarantee with 100% confidence that the handlers wanted to get that shorter mark second, but their dogs missed the short mark and kept on trucking (remember that then scent cone was on the right side of the marks in that test, so it wasn't given away by the scent if the dog was missing the mark to the left side).

FTGoldens
 
1 - 20 of 45 Posts
Top