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Now that everyone has had fun bashing there training group(hope there not reading this) lets take another look at the dog itself. Some dogs just don't have it. Its called a washout! No matter how much a pro or any other trainer trys to increase a dogs momentum, hes just pissing in the wind. So the dog gets sold as a started dog. These are good dogs, they go on to be hunting/family dogs. But they will never fill a spot on a pros truck that competes in ft. So could a dog lacking momentum be classified as a genetic flaw, maybe so.
Yep!
Some dogs just don't have "it." (For this thread, "it" means momentum, but for other threads "it" could mean something else.)
Even the very best trainer can't make chicken salad out of chicken ... fertilizer.
FTGoldens

ps: My training partner is well aware that I disagree with that type of training ... I've even walked in from a gunner station after a couple "no heres" with the explanation that I refuse to contribute to the destruction of a puppy's attitude :no: ... after a promise that it wouldn't happen again, I returned to the station.
 

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Yep!
Some dogs just don't have "it." (For this thread, "it" means momentum, but for other threads "it" could mean something else.)
Even the very best trainer can't make chicken salad out of chicken ... fertilizer.
FTGoldens

ps: My training partner is well aware that I disagree with that type of training ... I've even walked in from a gunner station after a couple "no heres" with the explanation that I refuse to contribute to the destruction of a puppy's attitude :no: ... after a promise that it wouldn't happen again, I returned to the station.
And good move!!!
 

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I was told to always leave the training with the dog wanting to run again. Always throw in freebies (shorter or easier blinds). I know many people do not like the idea to allow the dogs to play at the end of a training session but I have always let them out with other dogs and either run like maniacs after each other or throw them fun bumpers.

Start on a high note and finish on a high note. Never finish with a correction or a tedious exercise. Teach first and then correct regardless of how long it will take. Once you put a time stamp on your goals the handler is more prone to put too much pressure on the dog and while the dog may accomplish that said task it will wash out for the long run.
 

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I was told to always leave the training with the dog wanting to run again.
Agreed.
As Swampcollie noted, it is hugely important to READ THE DOG. Each dog is different with regard to the amount or type of pressure suitable for them. As we have read on this forum, some dogs nearly fold under a harsh tone of voice used by a trainer, while other dogs need a high level of correction just to get their attention. My first truly competitive dog, a male, could easily handle a moderate level of correction, but I rarely needed to go to that level to get him to change his behavior. Then I tried to train my next competitive dog, a female, with the same level of correction ... it took me a couple of years to figure out that she needed at least twice the level of pressure as the male. It depends on the dog.

Once you put a time stamp on your goals the handler is more prone to put too much pressure on the dog and while the dog may accomplish that said task it will wash out for the long run.
Agreed.
For this reason, I dislike using the word "program" when comes to training a retriever because, to me, it implies a timeline. Some dogs are pushed too fast, while others are not pushed fast enough. Heck, there's a great Labrador who sired a ton of competitive dogs ("Grady"), whose puppies had the reputation of maturing slowly; then when they hit 18 months or so, they turned it on and became very strong field trial dogs. On the other hand, there are some pups that can, maybe even NEED to be pushed faster. (I've got a dog that, I firmly believe, I should have pushed faster; it's my heartfelt opinion that the dog plateaued because I didn't push when it was younger.) I have to remind myself to train the dog that I've got in the manner that IT needs to be trained.
 

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Agreed.
As Swampcollie noted, it is hugely important to READ THE DOG. Each dog is different with regard to the amount or type of pressure suitable for them. As we have read on this forum, some dogs nearly fold under a harsh tone of voice used by a trainer, while other dogs need a high level of correction just to get their attention. My first truly competitive dog, a male, could easily handle a moderate level of correction, but I rarely needed to go to that level to get him to change his behavior. Then I tried to train my next competitive dog, a female, with the same level of correction ... it took me a couple of years to figure out that she needed at least twice the level of pressure as the male. It depends on the dog.



Agreed.
For this reason, I dislike using the word "program" when comes to training a retriever because, to me, it implies a timeline. Some dogs are pushed too fast, while others are not pushed fast enough. Heck, there's a great Labrador who sired a ton of competitive dogs ("Grady"), whose puppies had the reputation of maturing slowly; then when they hit 18 months or so, they turned it on and became very strong field trial dogs. On the other hand, there are some pups that can, maybe even NEED to be pushed faster. (I've got a dog that, I firmly believe, I should have pushed faster; it's my heartfelt opinion that the dog plateaued because I didn't push when it was younger.) I have to remind myself to train the dog that I've got in the manner that IT needs to be trained.
I have been fortunate to train with couple Grady pups (Grady recently passed away) and you are absolutely right about them.
On the other hand regardless of my age I am old school. Too many washed up derby dogs out there because they were pushed too much as puppies to get those Derby points. I never cared for the youngest dog to complete this or that. Not healthy in the first place. I am honestly surprised at how many pups do not have either preliminary OFA or even better Penn Hip only to not have passing hips at the age of two because of how hard they were pushed for the Derby points.
The FT people I have been around do not care about the Derby. Their training goal is Open - whatever comes is ice-cream on top but not a goal.

Where I differ from them is I never put any of my dogs to the side. They all train together and they all accomplish what they can accomplish as long as they and I have fun. I guess that would never make me a FT person because my duty is towards all my three dogs and not just the one that may (emphasis on may) make me "famous". My goal has never been not will it ever be to win anything but to enjoy my journey with all my dogs. And who knows maybe that is why we keep the momentum up... :) All three know when we go to training (funny how when I put the insulated snow pants and jacket on and I went shoveling snow they knew they did not go training) they get all excited and run straight to their car, tail wagging and whining to get into the car crates).
 

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OK, my opinion on this. The dogs come hard wired with certain behaviors. Your training can improve them or stifle them. It is understood that there is momentum, more momentum, and even more momentum. The training affects what they have.
 
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