Golden Retriever Dog Forums banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 35 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
409 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Found this post on a Doodle breeders board:
Heather
available english golden retrievers
Sat Dec 31, 2011 14:32
75.109.185.167

I wanted to let everyone know that I have a few english creme golden retrievers available for sale. 4 mos old to 1 year old.
These dogs are out of CHIC, hip, elbow, certified cardiologist heart, yearly cerf, etc. The parents are full import english, with champion titles in multiple countries, father champion in many many countries. These are the best English lines in the US today.
I have males and females available. I will sell with limited registration, with written permission to breed goldendoodles, (unless someone has a separate/ quality retriever program and is interested in full registration). I love the goldendoodle breed, but am not advertising my kennel name here due to purebreed politics. Thanks.
Since I'm nosy, I started poking around Google and found this: Cheyenne Valley Labradoodles and Goldendoodles. I went to their Goldendoodle parents page and saw some pics that I was fairly sure that I recognized. I went to k9data and found what I was looking for.

Three of the "English Creme Golden Retrievers" listed on Labradoodlebaby's website are:



On Majestic Cremes website:
Wisteria's Majestic Flower - K9 Data link
"Lilly" Laurelhill Emma - K9 Data link
Wisteria's Majestic Buttercup - K9 Data link

The pictures of all three of those girls match from one site to the other. More proof - look at the contact us/about us pages on both sites:
Majestic Creme Contact Us page
Cheyenne Valley Labradoodles About Us page

I do have screencaps of all the pages I linked to here so if any of them "disappear", I will post links to those instead.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,435 Posts
You REALLY know how to do your research. Can you find the original breeders of those dogs?
 
  • Like
Reactions: princess heidi

·
Registered
Joined
·
409 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Yes, I could probably find them but I doubt that they care. The Wisteria girls were bred by a woman who used a stud with grade II elbows on a bitch who had prelim hip clearance come back "Mild".

In fact, that is the breeding that produced those two - White Dove's Aspen Winter to Silvermine Wisteria's Sugar. Interestingly, neither of those girls has a verifiable hip or elbow clearance. You can bet that White Dove and Silvermine don't care either.

The Laurelhill girl was owned before by the same woman who breeds "Comfort Goldens" :yuck: and I can't find her breeder listed anywhere.

It wouldn't matter anyway. Majestic Creme is selling the puppies from these dogs, not the adults.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,435 Posts
It is so sad. Do you think there is a deliberate attempt to hide that the websites are owned by the same person?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
409 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Yes, it's definitely intentional on her part...note the part in her board posting where she doesn't want to reveal her kennel name "due to purebreed politics".

She also goes by one name when advertising her mixes and a different name when advertising her Goldens. (could be married name vs maiden name).
 

·
GOT HAIR?
Joined
·
25 Posts
i talked to a man that told me he was buying a goldendoodle puppy that has a F2B rating. he told me that meant it was a second generation puppy where there was a breeding back to a purebred poodle. WHAT?! do doodle breeders make this stuff up as they go?! is this just another way to fool puppy buyers and make them feel comfortable?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,669 Posts
My first golden I rescued from an elderly woman with RA. At 16 months the dog was limping and had severe HD in one hip and mild in the other. Then he died suddenly a few months later. We sent organs off..never could find what happened. Thinking SAS? But who know. OH and the PARENTS were (drum roll) ASPEN and SUGAR! And I did notify the breeder to tell her and of course her response was...I have never had a dog with HD! Classic! Just sad :-(
 

·
Inactive
Joined
·
11,326 Posts
i talked to a man that told me he was buying a goldendoodle puppy that has a F2B rating. he told me that meant it was a second generation puppy where there was a breeding back to a purebred poodle.
There's a real terminology for hybridizing strains that lets you clearly map out your plans. The original folks who crossed labs and poodles used it when they were trying to create an actual breed (by breeding the crosses to each other and trying to make a line that bred true). Current golden/lab/poodle profiteers will often use a pseudoscientific version of this hybrid terminology to make their breedings sound more legit.
 

·
Inactive
Joined
·
11,326 Posts
It is so sad. Do you think there is a deliberate attempt to hide that the websites are owned by the same person?
These are the people who called me a bigot when I said their website was full of misrepresentations...fun to see their deceit play out over and over again...

They're forum members, y'know.
 

·
Majesticcremes
Joined
·
8 Posts
The Doodle Conspiracy

This is not some sort of secret doodle conspiracy. YES, I have a connection to the doodle community. I have a family member who is currently a breeder of the goldendoodles. In addition, I have knowingly and happily contributed to this program (and others) in any way I could help, and have in fact sold to, and co-owned several dogs that were in that program, and have received assistance with website development, etc. I am proud of my support of this breed and any contribution I have been able to make to it. It is sad that some people seem to think that this is some sort of sordid situation, and have a problem with purebred breeders having any type of connection to any of the hybrids. I have been somewhat discreet in this association, due to the hostile environment, but have not hidden it, and if/ when anyone has ever asked about this connection, they have been given an honest, direct answer.
I have never trashed any of your dogs out, or done anything but try to make positive human connections. Yet, I have been met with nothing but hostility and cruelty by the people representing the Golden Retriever on this website from the very first time I visited to introduce myself. There has been nothing but attacks and baseless accusations. I have been insulted, degraded, abused. NOT ONE PERSON HERE HAS CONTACTED OR ADDRESSED ME DIRECTLY TO FIND OUT THE TRUTH before attacking me or after I offered to clarify the situation or correct their “misunderstandings”. NOT ONE! The point of the posts are in fact, to humiliate and abuse another human being. It is not now nor has it ever been about discovery of truth for any of these people, but trashing out a breeder who breeds or has a connection to a type of dog that they dislike or find personally offensive. Because this is an internet website, many unhappy, vicious people have found an outlet where they can take out their frustrations on others safely. They spew their self-righteous anger with no real desire to find out any truth before hurting real life people. This is disgusting that people seem to think this is acceptable behavior. Has our society devolved so low that people do not understand that this behavior is horrible, terroristic, and cruel?
In addition, why is it that no one has the courage to disagree or stand up against these bullies? Why does no one say, “Hold on, let’s just ask the person in question before we smear their name and make a serious attempt to damage their reputation, business and their lives.” No moral courage. Seriously, what is wrong with people? Is it the temporary high of feeling better than someone, anyone for just a moment? Or, even worse, is the desire to exercise the closet sociopath that is hidden within so strong? Furthermore, the moderators on this site who are allowing this to occur should be held morally and legally responsible. Vicious slander should not be ignored, which is implied agreement with the despicable behavior.
I have a long history with the American Golden retriever, and though I love and have enjoyed the breed, I am currently focused on the English Type Retriever. This is a personal preference, and I should not have to apologize or be terrorized because of it. Any activity, (breedings, etc) that occurred with my dogs before I purchased, or after I sold them has nothing to do with my program. I did not name any of these imported dogs, and should not be slandered for the spelling of the dog’s name once translated. I have been attacked and slandered on this site for things that happened beyond my control. The dogs in my program now were imported with health testing, which were completely redone in the US, exactly as I have represented. This can be verified by anyone with 5 minutes and a link to the OFA website. I have offered on multiple occasions, and I will happily send links to said health testing to anyone unsure how to find it. In my program, dogs that do not pass full health testing, or for whom I discover a serious genetic history of poor testing results in the pedigree do not remain in my program, even if the dog itself had good results. The health and temperament quality are most important, with titles, etc. coming after. I have turned away prospective breedings because there were too many unknowns, or obvious omissions in the health background in pedigrees. I take health results in my dogs and the extended potential lines, very very seriously. It is true that I charge more than most American type breeders, but in my opinion, it is justified by the investment I have made in the quality of my dogs, and my care for them and my program. But really, what difference does it make what I charge? I charge the same, or only slightly more than other English type breeders, with few or no titled dogs, and with far less quality health and testing. I am not sure what difference this makes to anyone here. Why does anyone even care?
The families I work with are educated, intelligent, and demand a very high level of service, professionalism and quality. If I was unable to provide this, then the price could not be justified, and would not stand.
When I have dealt with American Golden retriever breeders, over the years, I have had the unfortunate experience that a great many are breeding less than quality dogs, have minimal to no testing to speak of, or are not interested in honestly representing their program and lines. In most of those that do test, you can almost always find serious poor testing results in many of the close relatives, siblings, cousins, etc. In a breed with such a high incidence of hip dysplasia, and other serious health issues, this is a problem. No one ever talks about this, supports or challenges each other to improve. Breeders are terrified to communicate openly for fear of public humiliation.
In contrast, my every experience with the quality doodle breeders today has been the opposite. They have been open, honest, helpful, and care more for the correct development of their breed than supporting their overblown egos. In addition, they maintain extensive databases so that they can track dogs, generations, health testing, genetic problems, so as to hopefully eliminate potential diseases from the breed as a whole, even those diseases which are difficult to test for and track. It takes courage to honestly evaluate your dogs, their lines, make difficult and costly changes to your program, and release negative information to the public for the sake of the continual improvement of the breed. This is the standard that this community is known for. If the Golden retriever community behaved in this manner, I believe that the health problems that we are plagued with as a breed, would not have happened in the first place, or could have been eliminated. It is my experience and understanding that the goldendoodle community is far more ethical and conscientious in their standards of breeding, as a whole, and in fact requires and maintains higher standards of testing and health. I look forward to working with this community and assisting in any way possible toward its positive development. If anyone on this forum or elsewhere has a problem with that, so be it. In the future, I would hope that anyone with legitimate concerns would address them directly. I am available anytime, and am happy to respond with facts, and documentation. You can reach me at [email protected].
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,435 Posts
In a great breeding program, there is an ideal of what a particular dog will be like, a blueprint that helps breeders be less subjective and more honest about the structure, purpose, and sturdiness of the puppies they produce. One of the issues with the myriad poodle crosses is that they turn out so differently from one another with no goal for their structure in each breeding. I have never met a doodle breeder( I know at least 10 of the better ones who do do health testing) who has any idea of form/function in the dogs they produce. They simply do not have an eagle eye for both breeds: that poodle is long in hocks and that golden is too long in the loin. . . . This willingness to breed any poodle who passes health testing to any golden who does result not just in puppies with eye-sore structures, but in puppies who have orthopedic problems. We just had to excuse a client with a doodle from agility and send her to the vet- hip dysplasia. The laxity is painful to watch in the dog, but neither the client nor the breeder have a notion of what correct structure for an active dog looks like in terms of overall balance, how the angles rear and fore work, etc. The breeder is not choosing a poodle to compliment the weaknesses of her golden bitch- she is just willynilly breeding dogs together if they pass hips and elbows.Since most poodle, golden, and lab breeders will not sell a pup on full registration to a doodle breeder unless tricked since it violates their club's code of ethics, many doodle breeders are using very flawed members of either breed as foundation stock.

Around here, the poodle mixes are promoted as hypoallergenic- a myth that can result in a fast trip to the shelter for a puppy who disappoints. The problem is that breeding poodle mixes, against both the poodle club and golden retriever club code of ethics, is just as likely to result in the health problems of both breeds as it is the benefits of both. We have a poodle mix right now in our shelter with horrible allergies, and the local breeder refuses to take him back.An outcross within a breed makes it hard to know what you are getting nevermined combining two breeds. Good breeders know every dog going back for 12 generations.

I am a dog trainer who meets 20-30 doodles a year, and I have never met an owner who knows a thing about the dog's grandparents- their health, their COD. I feel sorry for poodle mixes marketed for high prices with cutsie names like "doodles" for 3 times more than a golden puppy whose parents have proven themselves in the field, the obedience ring, and the show ring. "Doodles" are marketed like handbags, cars, or shoes- objectified. It's crass and commercial. There are so many wonderful mixed breed dogs in shelters- creating more makes no sense. Just like no USA breeder is going to sell their best, most healthy puppy overseas, so are breeders from other countries unlikely to sell their best to people unknown in the Usa. PennHip's stats show the poodle mixes with worse hip scores across the board than poodles, labs, or goldens. From real life experience, these tend to be hyper dogs with inexperienced owners who think of them as a status symbol.
 

·
Inactive
Joined
·
11,326 Posts
NOT ONE PERSON HERE HAS CONTACTED OR ADDRESSED ME DIRECTLY TO FIND OUT THE TRUTH before attacking me or after I offered to clarify the situation or correct their “misunderstandings”. NOT ONE!
I haven't yet seen a single person who misunderstood anything about your dogs or your breeding program. Everything that has been said about you has been based on either information provided on your own website, publicly verifiable information about your dogs, or web postings you yourself have made.

Second, I had a lengthy personal exchange with you before making any public statements, so it is yet another lie to say that "not one person" has addressed you directly.

The point of the posts are in fact, to humiliate and abuse another human being. It is not now nor has it ever been about discovery of truth for any of these people, but trashing out a breeder who breeds or has a connection to a type of dog that they dislike or find personally offensive.
Another falsehood. The point of these posts is to help people learn to find dogs that fit the GRCA's definition of a carefully-bred dog. The point is to help people find dogs who fit the breed standard (be it English or American) and who have the best possible shot at a long, healthy life.

Has our society devolved so low that people do not understand that this behavior is horrible, terroristic, and cruel?
First we're bigots, and now we're terrorists? I mean, c'mon. What's cruel is ignoring tools that can prevent the suffering of innocent dogs and then lying and blustering when you're called out about it.

In addition, why is it that no one has the courage to disagree or stand up against these bullies? Why does no one say, “Hold on, let’s just ask the person in question before we smear their name and make a serious attempt to damage their reputation, business and their lives.” No moral courage. Seriously, what is wrong with people? Is it the temporary high of feeling better than someone, anyone for just a moment? Or, even worse, is the desire to exercise the closet sociopath that is hidden within so strong? Furthermore, the moderators on this site who are allowing this to occur should be held morally and legally responsible. Vicious slander should not be ignored, which is implied agreement with the despicable behavior.
There's no slander (or libel) if the statement is true. Your breeding program fails to match the ethics set out by the GRCA, and you're being called out publicly for that failure, all based on information you yourself provide on your website and information that is publicly available about your dogs. Unfortunately, it all appears to be true, and you haven't actually shown that any of the claims made here are untrue. Not a single one! What have people lied about? You market and breed for a color extreme (against both common sense and the breed club's recommendations). You participate in breeding mixes (against breed club recommendations for myriad reasons relating to health and suffering of dogs). You sell through brokers (not indicative of somebody who cares about where their dogs end up and against the GRCA CoE). Your dogs aren't all properly cleared at the time they're bred (and nowhere in your lengthy post did you offer a single piece of updated health information).

I have a long history with the American Golden retriever, and though I love and have enjoyed the breed, I am currently focused on the English Type Retriever. This is a personal preference, and I should not have to apologize or be terrorized because of it.
We have a couple of breeders of English types on the board, and we have lots of English type owners. Nobody gives them a hard time. What do you think the difference is between them and you? In fact, those poor breeders of English type dogs in the US have to go through tons of headaches in order to make sure they're not associated with breeders like you. They also don't make false claims about the health of their type. In fact, some wonderful, ethical English type breeders recently had a discussion here on the forum about the prevalence of icthyosis and the relative merits of the current testing available.

For the millionth time, you're not being singled out for breeding English type dogs. We love English type dogs and ethical breeders of that type. You're being singled out for failing to fit the definition of a good or ethical breeder. You're being singled out for making baseless claims about the health of English type dogs relative to American. You're being singled out for making misleading (and occasionally outright false) claims about your dogs' titles, qualifications, and clearances.

I did not name any of these imported dogs, and should not be slandered for the spelling of the dog’s name once translated.
I remember the exchange about the spelling, and I don't see any slander that occurred over it. Once the dog was correctly identified, people amended their statements.

The dogs in my program now were imported with health testing, which were completely redone in the US, exactly as I have represented. This can be verified by anyone with 5 minutes and a link to the OFA website. I have offered on multiple occasions, and I will happily send links to said health testing to anyone unsure how to find it.
Why don't you spend time correcting any inaccurate statements about your dogs, then? You took the time to call us terrorists twice in your lengthy post, but you didn't take the five minutes to correct or update any clearance information.

In most of those that do test, you can almost always find serious poor testing results in many of the close relatives, siblings, cousins, etc. In a breed with such a high incidence of hip dysplasia, and other serious health issues, this is a problem. No one ever talks about this, supports or challenges each other to improve. Breeders are terrified to communicate openly for fear of public humiliation.
Here we have an entire forum of breeders and enthusiasts discussing clearances, programs, hopes, fears, health, and plans. Just as we easily found with your dogs and their relatives, there are going to failed test results when tests are done. That's the point of the tests. People need to be more open, sure, but good breeders already are. And good breeders come and clear up any misunderstandings because they don't have anything to hide. They don't make overblown accusations of libel and laughably absurd claims of terrorism.

In contrast, my every experience with the quality doodle breeders today has been the opposite. They have been open, honest, helpful, and care more for the correct development of their breed than supporting their overblown egos.
Really? Because my experience with doodle breeders is that they generally don't do clearances, and the statistics in the OFA database will tell you that those that do are using lower grade hips than Poodle or Golden breeders. And a basic knowledge of husbandry and genetics would tell you that outcrossing strains as far apart as Goldens and Poodles would tend to produce a wider range of hip sockets and therefore a slightly higher percentage of dysplastic dogs overall. If you then bred the crosses back to each other, you could start to control for hips, but that's not what you're participating in.

I am available anytime, and am happy to respond with facts, and documentation.
Then why not do it here? If you feel you've been slandered, why not set the facts straight? For example, you state that EX is "the most titled" English style dog living in the US today. You also told me two years ago that you were working on his American title. What's the basis for the first claim? And is the second really true? If so, what AKC shows has he been entered in and how has he done? Let's hear this honesty.

If you have facts and documentation that contradict any claims made about you on GRF, please let us know. If there have been misunderstandings or inaccuracies, people are generally quite willing to apologize and let the record be set straight. We care more about truth and dogs than about defending any mistakes. But you haven't contradicted a single claim that has been made about your breeding program. If I'm wrong about anything, I'll happily apologize and retract what I said. But let's see the proof first, eh?
 

·
Matt
Joined
·
235 Posts
It is true that I charge more than most American type breeders, but in my opinion, it is justified by the investment I have made in the quality of my dogs, and my care for them and my program. But really, what difference does it make what I charge? I charge the same, or only slightly more than other English type breeders, with few or no titled dogs, and with far less quality health and testing. I am not sure what difference this makes to anyone here. Why does anyone even care?
The families I work with are educated, intelligent, and demand a very high level of service, professionalism and quality. If I was unable to provide this, then the price could not be justified, and would not stand.

Tippy said everything I wanted to say, but I just wanted to comment on the price issue. I completely believe in the free market system, but to say that your customers and customers that purchase the "English" type are educated and intelligent on the subject is....well annoying. I have been on this forum for a little over a year and I can't count on both of my hands how many people come here that are completely ignorant about the "English Cream" or just Golden's in general.

That's one of the main reasons this forum exist in my opinion. To educate people about the breed and since this is a free market, not North. Korea you are perfectly in your right to charge whatever you want for you dogs, but we are also right to suggest that people can find the same quality dogs, if not better some place else. In fact our society has made a few companies that do this service, Consumer Reports for example?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
409 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Majestic Creme - I was the one who posted this information and would not have done so knowing exactly what I was posting. Please prove to me that I am wrong on what I have posted and I will post a retraction.

YES, I have a connection to the doodle community. I have a family member who is currently a breeder of the goldendoodles. In addition, I have knowingly and happily contributed to this program (and others) in any way I could help, and have in fact sold to, and co-owned several dogs that were in that program, and have received assistance with website development, etc.
1) I did not see you deny that it is YOU that is the one breeding Goldendoodles. If this is true, that you and your "family member" have some VERY similar lifestyles! You both have the same occupation and your husband's both have the same degrees from college and the same job: Google search on quote from web site

2) I have verified your clearances and asked you about missing ones in the past and you completely ignored those questions so let's look at them again.

Exclusive/Excusive The Dream Team - all clearances, including heart by Cardiologist and current CERF

Rus Pekos Alexandra - cardiac clearance (by Cardiologist), no verifiable hip/elbow/eye certifications.

Rus Pekos Izyminka - all clearances, including heart by Cardiologist and current CERF.

Rus Pekos Markiza Angelov - hips, heart (Cardiologist), current CERF, no verifiable elbow clearance.

Laurelhill Emma - PennHip for hips, all other clearances, including heart by Cardiologist and current CERF.

Rus Pekos Kapa - hips, heart (Cardiologist), current CERF, no verifiable elbow clearance.

Sharada Iz Sokolinogo Gnezda - all clearances, including heart by Cardiologist and current CERF.

Wisterias Majestic Buttercup - no verifiable clearances

Wisterias Majestic Flower - heart by Cardiologist, no verifiable hip, elbow clearances, expired CERF

or for whom I discover a serious genetic history of poor testing results in the pedigree do not remain in my program
Really? Because Flower was sired by a dog with bad elbows out of a dam with bad hips! If you are "sharing" your dogs with your "family member" for breeding doodle mixes, why did you "share" the 2 dogs with questionable clearance history (Buttercup and Flower)?

It's interesting to me that as this morning, your Majestic Cremes website is completely down and the posting on the Doodle breeders board has been removed.
 

·
Inactive
Joined
·
11,326 Posts
On the price issue: people are free to charge whatever they can get for their dogs, but we're also free to point out that the dogs are dramatically overpriced for what you're getting. A typical dog from a hobby breeding that conforms fully to the GRCA's CoE and other guidelines for an an ideal breeder (i.e., titled parents, multigenerational clearances, etc.) would be about $1000-$2000. Sometimes potential show dogs go for significantly more, but there are lots of these wonderful hobby bred dogs going in the $1200-$1500 range.

So it is sort of shocking to see a puppy sell for $2000+ when it's produced out of parents with incomplete clearances and no personal accomplishments (aside from a claimed Russian or eastern European championship).

But it's not the $4000 that's the real ethical problem. It's the producing of a dog that doesn't have the best possible shot at a long, healthy life and an excellent temperament, and the repeated lies that the dog is somehow going to be more healthy than a dog from a breeding with multigenerational clearances and titles that certify health, structure, temperament, and ability.
 

·
Inactive
Joined
·
11,326 Posts
I did not see you deny that it is YOU that is the one breeding Goldendoodles. If this is true, that you and your "family member" have some VERY similar lifestyles!
From Majestic Crème's site (currently down, but Google cached):

We are a large family living in a beautiful ranching community in north Texas, near Dallas. We have been blessed with several children, and we are furthur blessed to be given the privelege to own, raise, show, and care for our gorgeous english creme retrievers.

I am a stay at home mom who has degrees in Psychology and Elementary education. I stay home with the children and care for the dogs, and the growing puppies.

My husband, who has a Masters degrees in Biology and Chemistry, and a Ph.D. in Education, currently works as an Engineer.
From Cheyenne Valley Labradoodles' site:

We are a large family living in a beautiful farming community in north Texas, near Dallas. We have been blessed with several children, and we are furthur blessed to be given the privelege to own, raise, and care for awesome labradoodle and goldendoodles.

I am a stay at home mom who has a BS in Psychology and Elementary education. I stay home with the children and care for the dogs, and the growing puppies.

My husband, who has a Masters degrees in Biology and Chemistry, and a Ph.D. in Education, currently works as an Engineer.

I think it's pretty clear that this statement:

YES, I have a connection to the doodle community. I have a family member who is currently a breeder of the goldendoodles. In addition, I have knowingly and happily contributed to this program (and others) in any way I could help, and have in fact sold to, and co-owned several dogs that were in that program, and have received assistance with website development, etc.
and this statement:

I have been somewhat discreet in this association, due to the hostile environment, but have not hidden it, and if/ when anyone has ever asked about this connection, they have been given an honest, direct answer.
Are laughably contradictory, given that the two sites are obviously the same family...unless the Poodle mix breeder has somehow copied the site (or the life!) of the "Cream" breeder, right down to the misspellings of "privilege" and "further" If the two families are in fact the same, this is yet another lie you've been caught out in, during the same breath that you claim openness and honesty.

Thanks for catching that one, Ragtym. Your research skills are unparalleled.
 

·
Matt
Joined
·
235 Posts
This is not some sort of secret doodle conspiracy.
Lol apparently it is...

YES, I have a connection to the doodle community. I have a family member who is currently a breeder of the goldendoodles. In addition, I have knowingly and happily contributed to this program (and others) in any way I could help, and have in fact sold to, and co-owned several dogs that were in that program, and have received assistance with website development, etc. I have been somewhat discreet in this association, due to the hostile environment, but have not hidden it, and if/when anyone has ever asked about this connection, they have been given an honest, direct answer.
Discreet is a understatement.....:doh:


And Ragtym.....:bowrofl:
 
1 - 20 of 35 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top