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Discussion Starter #1
I've heard through the grapevine that some golden retriever lines are having problems with missing teeth. I don't mean falling out, I mean not born with some adult teeth. I've heard to start counting teeth before considering a breeding. This was a complete surprise to me about missing teeth. I know it's a problem in some breeds like Chihuahuas, but never heard of before in golden retrievers. In some breeds missing teeth is a DQ in the show ring.

Anyone with insight on missing teeth and how prevalent this problem is? Is it something that should be added to our breed standard?
 

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Puddles
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Interesting.. never heard of this before. My last 3 golden girls had bottom teeth where the two center teeth were slightly in front of the others. Because all the girls were the same way I never gave it much thought. The pup I have now looks like she wore braces or has doggie dentures as they are perfectly straight teeth, top and bottom.
I nave noticed on k9data there are dogs with "full detention" and assumed that meant they were like this pup.. no over crowding?
Is this something people will be getting clearances for?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
No clearances wouldn't be required. But in the show ring if full dentition is required in the breed standard, then it would be a DQ if the dog is missing any teeth. But that's only a DQ from the show ring.
 

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the party's crashing us
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OK what Puddles described is "dropped incisors" where the middle two bottom incisors lean forward. That is VERY COMMON in goldens, and other breeds, and is not addressed in our standard. I would say you find it more common than not. The problem starts when those two lower teeth lean so far out they are now undershot to the upper incisors. Again, this is NOT an underbite, but it's going to make judges think. Don't make judges think.

I have found that the lines with missing teeth are FIELD LINES. Holy crap. If you can find a field trial bred Golden with all it's teeth, good on ya. It is rampant. But is it important? Certainly doesn't stop them from picking up a duck...

I'm sure there are conformation lines that are prone to missing teeth, I do not know them specifically. Luckily I've yet to have a dog with missing teeth. Yet a friend of mine X-rays every puppy at 8 weeks to see if they are missing adult teeth...yes, you can see their adult teeth in their skull at 8 weeks! You do see the occasional show dog with a missing tooth, typically a premolar.

OFA now offers a Dentition "clearance." Basically your vet fills out a form to confirm the dog has all of its teeth, and you mail it into OFA. At first I thought it was a little silly, but now owning a stud dog I could see that it would put to rest any rumor that your dog had missing teeth.
 

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This may be a little off topic but what's interesting is that some veterinary dentists don't really know what is going on with missing teeth. An owner of a golden with missing teeth (one lower premolar on each side which is what you typically see, I think, in dogs with missing teeth) told me that the veterinary dentist said his teeth probably never came in because he had chewed on an electrical wire as a pup.
 

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It is considered genetic, and the same gene causes extra teeth. So they say.
I listed Tito as full dentition in OFA not only so the question wouldn't come up, but also in case he cracked or lost any as an adult.
 

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Kate
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@conformation lines (I have never heard of field lines having the problem either, but I don't know so many people in field who talk about faults the way people in conformation obsess about them LOL) - I've heard that it is pretty random... and not specifically something that shows up in litters if you breed a dog with a missing tooth. And the flipside, there's people who have never had produced a dog with a missing tooth have randomly encountered that down the road with a full known history of several generations with no teeth problems.

I don't think I've heard of "lines" being known for missing teeth.

Um. Have seen dogs with missing teeth in the ring. But random. It's teeth on the side. You can spot it when the dog's panting.

I know people who will not show a dog who is missing a tooth. But others will. They finish the dogs without any problem. Probably depends on the judge and the ability of the handler to distract a judge from noticing something.... the judges are supposed to check the whole mouth, some are less picky than others. Some are regular tooth fairies about mouths and would probably put up a lame dog over a dog with dropped incisors... :D

^^^ Disclaimer. I've never had a dog missing a tooth prior to my Jacks who lost a tooth while trying to chew through a door during a panic attack (tstorm). I have friends who have suddenly had the problem show up and it's unfair to assume it's in the lines.
 

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OFA now offers a Dentition "clearance." Basically your vet fills out a form to confirm the dog has all of its teeth, and you mail it into OFA. At first I thought it was a little silly, but now owning a stud dog I could see that it would put to rest any rumor that your dog had missing teeth.
I just recently noticed this clearance and was wondering about it.
 

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Grumpy Old Man
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In my experience, missing teeth (typically a premolar) have been seen in certain lines when the COI is allowed to get too high. Get the COI back down to a reasonable level and the missing teeth problem goes away.

In other words if the COI gets too high, undesired genetic flaws can be expressed. This is true for all lines of Golden Retriever.
 

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Jennifer
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Missing teeth (obvious gaps) are a fault, but not a disqualification <https://www.grca.org/about-the-breed/akc-breed-standard/>. In my opinion, there is not a perfect dog and with all the problems (lack of fronts, short on leg, cancer, etc.) Goldens have, missing a tooth isn't something I worry about. Of course, ideally, full definition is preferred, but I'd consider the overall soundness and strengths of the dog, before I'd throw it out of a breeding program.
 

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With Her 3 Goldens
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I was going to say, there are a LOT of field/hunting bred goldens around here with missing teeth. And it's usually the same ones - on the bottom, on the side of their mouth towards the front (so it's obvious when they are panting after running/working). Its so weird (all 3 of mine have all their teeth, which is probably why I think it's so strange). But Anney is correct in that it doesn't stop them from picking up a bird, so I am assuming it is not something that a lot of people looking at working lines are breeding for....
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I checked my field dog and my show dog last night. It appears they both have all their teeth. But I'll confirm on my next vet appointment and if they both do, I'll file OFA results on both. The OFA dentition form says $15. So for historical information for our breed, I'll file it for future knowledge base. Hopefully I'm correct in my count. If not, I'll happily add the lack of a tooth on my k9data information for the dog.

My field dog has a typical field pedigree with all the usual players: Pedigree: Thistle Rock Kicking Up a Fuss RN
My show dog has a typical U.S. show pedigree with all the usual players also: Pedigree: Wiseman Wildfire Grayling Fish On CD RN JH WC

Since they have pretty typical pedigrees, I'll be happy to add that information on dentition. Lack of teeth is an important thing and I would hate to see it become a bigger problem.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I have some information from a good source that it is NOT just field lines, but ALSO show lines have missing teeth. We ALL need to look at any dog as potentially missing teeth.
 

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I know from my days of showing Shelties that ignoring missing teeth can quickly become a real problem its a complex inheritance and the pre curser to missing teeth is wide spaced pre molars and or teeth in general. In general you will start to see missing pre molars first then you start to see real problems I have seen many breeds with as many as 5 missing molars, this makes it harder to chew among other problems I had a dog with missing teeth break her jaw in two the specialist said the missing teeth created weak spots. It is also a problem that sneaks up on lines. You may keep the breed the dog with full dentation that had two sisters that had missing teeth and since it is a complex inheritance have it show up time and time again.

Aussies are really cracking down on teeth as the problem is rapidly growing. I know in the scheme of things it may appear at first minor but it spreads like wildfire and can cause bite issues, pain for the dog in some cases among other issues. I know one dog that has had thousands of dollars dumped into him as the missing molars have caused infections in the gums. And once you have it in your lines it can be almost impossible to get rid of. I know one that is still fighting it showing up even 10 generations later and that is with careful research into even the sibs of the dogs in her lines.

Some dogs have no problems with the missing teeth but some do
 

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In my experience, missing teeth (typically a premolar) have been seen in certain lines when the COI is allowed to get too high. Get the COI back down to a reasonable level and the missing teeth problem goes away.

In other words if the COI gets too high, undesired genetic flaws can be expressed. This is true for all lines of Golden Retriever.
The 2 dogs that I can think of that off the top of my head thatI know are missing teeth both have COI's around 6 which is under the breed average. What is a reasonable level that you would see this problem go away. I know few breeders who like to stay under 5.
 

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Grumpy Old Man
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The 2 dogs that I can think of that off the top of my head thatI know are missing teeth both have COI's around 6 which is under the breed average. What is a reasonable level that you would see this problem go away. I know few breeders who like to stay under 5.
But you are missing the point.

COI includes way more than just the simple snipit that you look up on k9data. If you look back in the pedigree you will find some very tight pairings that expressed the fault.

This is why understanding COI is hard for many people to grasp. Simply looking at the number doesn't tell you much, unless you possess a thorough understanding of the lines you're dealing with, and what they do and don't carry.

For some pairings a 12 generation COI of 10 is very high. In another pairing a 12 generation COI of 5 or 6 is too high. You have to know what the dog carries to understand what is too much and what is ok.
 

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Swampcollie,
Which is why I didn't really understand your statement that dropping the COI would make the problem of missing teeth go away. Without knowing the lines you could outcross but if you pick another line that throws that same trait you would be still building on it.
The 10 and 12 Gen COI's are useful but I'm finding they are just a small piece of the puzzle. One of my mentors likes to remind me that we are breeding dogs not paper.
Any discussion about breeding choices is always interesting and informative.
 

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I dont think COI has much to do with missing teeth. I can think of a few lines frequently missing teeth, though I have never owned a dog without full dentition( yet). Often if a judge in a panel is seriously known as a "tooth fairy" , you will see that 1/4th of the entry skips that day. When 3 teeth are missing, it is more drastic than one for making it a grave flaw. Handlers devise ingenious ways to hide missing teeth, which many judges know well- the game of chess/cat & mouse plays out sometimes. How serious are missing teeth? In a grey area dog with lots of other faults, it might lead do the decision not to show. Plenty of really nice dogs finish missing a tooth though, as most judges consider it a fault but not the worst by far. If I had a wonderful pup lose baby teeth and not emerge with full dentition, I would soulsearch about the dog- not sure what I would then do except weigh it against the overall quality.


I listed my stud dog on OFA for full dentition, and I will with HipHop also, so it is one less thing for bitch owners to worry about. As a bitch owner, I would like that info to mull over, but probably wouldnt rule out over it as my girls have all teeth.

GR-DE297/16M-VPI DENTITION DATABASE Sep 15 2014 Oct 13 2014 16 FULL DENTITION
 
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I know of specific dogs who were missing multiple teeth, and I am aware of 1 breeder who was radiographing young dogs to see if the adult teeth were coming in before selling them as show prospects (or keeping them for themselves). While it is something that I have not had to deal with, I have not been a big fan of the pedigrees where it was prevalent either. There was one big-winning bitch from years ago, and not much was said publicly about it at the time, I know the owner is very forthcoming about it today if you ask, and she was bred 3 times. I don't know whether or not any of those offspring (esp the CHs) had missing teeth.
 
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