[OrangeP]

Hi All,

I am new to the forum but have been researching a lot in the forum.

We are looking for a puppy to join our family. When I was doing my research on litters, I found something called line breeding. I would like to know how close is too close. If the dam’s grandparents and the sire’s parents are the same, is this too close? Should I calculate the COI and follow it?

Another question is if the dam is a pra2 genetic carrier, is it bad?

Any information will be appreciated and thank you in advance.

Any if anyone know a litter available, please let me know too. Willing to travel to get an adorable puppy!

 

[Prism Goldens]

PRA carrier status- no, as long as sire is clear a carrier cannot alone make an affected puppy.
Calculating COI- I don't think you could accomplish this yourself since it would require you to have at least a 12 gen pedigree database. I'm not even sure, for most people, the COI means much. Generally what I advise people sussing out a pedigree to do is look at the dogs who the COI is largely built on, and know that they will have a greater than random influence on the offspring.
How close is too close... that depends. Are that MRCA pair still alive? Did they have more than one litter? Have they had health issues? Is he a popular stud dog? If he is, and is still fairly young and doing breedings, this kind of line breeding is without much steerage... since we dk what comes down from him at this point. If the MRCA pair are both long gone and most of the original breedings suffered no ill health and lived long lives, then it might be ok. I do not know of any breeding blueprints that use BOTH sire and dam- so that not only would one be doing a Brackett breeding on the sire, but also the dam. To me, jmo, that factor alone might make it too much.

 

[OrangeP]

Thank you so much for the very informative reply. Learning a lot from this.

Are that MRCA pair still alive? Did they have more than one litter? Have they had health issues? Is he a popular stud dog? If he is, and is still fairly young and doing breedings, this kind of line breeding is without much steerage... since we dk what comes down from him at this point. If the MRCA pair are both long gone and most of the original breedings suffered no ill health and lived long lives, then it might be ok.

I think they are still alive based on my research. And they had 3 litters. Looks like they don’t have health issues. I don’t know if he is a popular stud dog but he does have more than 10 and the last one is 2019, he is around 12 years old. Not all the offsprings have all information.

Can I post the K9/OFA data of the sire and dam here? I don’t want make it look bad for the breeder.

 

[Prism Goldens]

You can- or you can PM to me and whoever else you think could help.

 

[OrangeP]

Send you a PM. Thank you so much!

 

[DanaRuns]

If the dam’s grandparents and the sire’s parents are the same, is this too close?

I think what you're describing is something known as a "Brackett breeding," named after a famous breeder in the past named Lloyd Brackett. But it's not parents and grandparents plural, just one. The official description goes like this: "Let the sire of the sire become the grand sire on the dam's side." Said another way, "let the father's father become the mothers grandfather." So if you were to look at the pedigree of a puppy, you'd see the sire's father (puppy's grandfather) as DOG X, and then if you look at the dam's grandfather (puppy's great-grandfather) that would also be DOG X.

This is a very common and popular line breeding technique. In fact, I'm planning a Brackett breeding for later this year. The notion is to take a great dog (you wouldn't want to do it with a problematic dog) and double up on him in the pedigree, but do it far enough back in the pedigree that you're allowing sufficient genetic diversity. What is "sufficient genetic diversity" is in the eye of the beholder. And whether this is a good or bad breeding technique is entirely dependent on the dog you're doubling up on. If it's a fantastic dog with great genes, then you're making a puppy that is even more fantastic and has all those great genes. But if it's a lesser dog with hidden genetic problems, then you'll get a puppy that is lesser and doubles up on those genetic problems.

This kind of breeding is so completely dependent on knowledge of the dog being doubled-up on, there's no practical way a typical puppy buyer can themselves evaluate whether this is a great breeding or a bad breeding. If you have an experienced, knowledgeable, ethical, careful breeder that you trust, I wouldn't worry about this at all, and in fact I would be excited. But if you don't trust that breeder's knowledge, then perhaps it wouldn't be the litter for you.

 

[Prism Goldens]

I think what you're describing is something known as a "Brackett breeding," named after a famous breeder in the past named Lloyd Brackett. But it's not parents and grandparents plural, just one. The official description goes like this: "Let the sire of the sire become the grand sire on the dam's side." Said another way, "let the father's father become the mothers grandfather." So if you were to look at the pedigree of a puppy, you'd see the sire's father (puppy's grandfather) as DOG X, and then if you look at the dam's grandfather (puppy's great-grandfather) that would also be DOG X.

This is a very common and popular line breeding technique. In fact, I'm planning a Brackett breeding for later this year. The notion is to take a great dog (you wouldn't want to do it with a problematic dog) and double up on him in the pedigree, but do it far enough back in the pedigree that you're allowing sufficient genetic diversity. What is "sufficient genetic diversity" is in the eye of the beholder. And whether this is a good or bad breeding technique is entirely dependent on the dog you're doubling up on. If it's a fantastic dog with great genes, then you're making a puppy that is even more fantastic and has all those great genes. But if it's a lesser dog with hidden genetic problems, then you'll get a puppy that is lesser and doubles up on those genetic problems.

This kind of breeding is so completely dependent on knowledge of the dog being doubled-up on, there's no practical way a typical puppy buyer can themselves evaluate whether this is a great breeding or a bad breeding. If you have an experienced, knowledgeable, ethical, careful breeder that you trust, I wouldn't worry about this at all, and in fact I would be excited. But if you don't trust that breeder's knowledge, then perhaps it wouldn't be the litter for you.

this particular breeding is on a breeding pair- I've never heard of anyone deliberately Bracketting a pair, have you? It just feels too much to me. And they are both living- so we don't have the benefit of seeing generations down from the great dog like I know you are probably planning! (still waiting to see that new do, Blondie)

 

[Oceanside]

this particular breeding is on a breeding pair- I've never heard of anyone deliberately Bracketting a pair, have you? It just feels too much to me. And they are both living- so we don't have the benefit of seeing generations down from the great dog like I know you are probably planning! (still waiting to see that new do, Blondie)

I have seen deliberate Bracketting of a pair at least twice, by the same very well known breeder, on the same pair. I can’t really think of other cases though. I’m fine with a Brackett on a really solid dog, but I agree that this feels a bit too much to me as well, although better than a half-sib breeding.