Lily

Well Lily went out in the first series of the Q and the Am. Did not see one of the birds in the Q, not sure why. She was looking at the gun but I could tell she was confused after the shot. That's a field trial, one little thing can take you out.
The first series of the am was very tough as I expected. Lily got the birds but had a little too big of a hunt on the long retired. Worst part was she blatantly cheated water in route to 2 birds, some spankings are in her near future.

Jake did very well in the first series of the am. Second series was a double blind with a dry shot form a standout gun. A thin slice of water in route to both blinds. Jake lined the first blind and was very good on the second. One whistle in the water and one more cast 2/3rds of the way to the blind. Doesn't get much better than that. 3rd series water blind this morning. 22 dogs left out of 73 that started. Three dogs in our training group still in,including Lily's mama.

The derby ran one series yesterday afternoon. Pretty simple double with a flier. Lily did perfect, I think only 3 or 4 dogs eliminated.

I will post some photos and better explanations of the tests this week.

Sankari said:

Sorry to hear Jake got tripped up by the poison bird 🙁 but poison birds are a slightly more advanced skill set if I understand correctly..?

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It is an advanced concept and other factors can make it even more difficult. I'll post a photo and detailed explanation this week.

PARENTAL GUIDANCE SUGGESTED
I ran a poison bird blind with Jake today. He held a great line to the blind and stopped perfectly to whistle facing me on the right edge of a mound past the poison bird. I gave him a Right Back cast, he turned right but spun 270 degrees and tried to sneak around the mound and back to the poison bird. I have known him since he was 7 weeks old and anticipated this type of deviousness. I had turned the e collar transmitter up to level 7, because there is no level 8. When he came around the mound I whistled, he stopped and I gave him a high 7 burn for several seconds. Guess what? He never made a sound, because he knew he deserved it and knew it was coming but chose to try it anyway. Next I gave him an over cast back to the right side of the mound and stopped him where he was before, then another Right Back cast and, miraculously, he took it all the way to the blind.

For anyone reading; pressure on blinds is a very tricky thing and pressure (especially collar pressure) on poison birds is even trickier. You have to be absolutely certain of the dogs intent. Jake lack of reaction to such a high level of correction proved beyond doubt his intent. We will continue to work on it and there will always be a clear path to success that I hope he chooses. It really does hurt me more than it hurts him.
With young and inexperienced retrievers almost no pressure should be used in teaching blind retrieves. As Rexx Carr said, "Train for momentum, precision will follow".

After the poison bird blind we ran 4 more blinds in a different area. Three water blind and one one all land. Jake and Lily both did very well, only a couple minor corrections for not taking good casts into the wind.

This is the 3rd series of the PRTA derby. Both marks thrown left, long mark first then the shot mark.
Photo is taken from a mound behind the line, which is just in front and left of the holding blind. Wind is at the handlers back.
I would guess the long mark was 250-275 yards. The most difficult factor of the long mark is that it is thrown across the water on the upper end of the pond, distance amplifies that factor. There is a patch of tules that the mark is thrown past an several yards deep of. This also proved to be difficult for the dogs to figure out.
29 dogs ran this test and only 12 were called back. Of those 12, only one got the long mark without a hunt and that dog was picked up in the next series when it was going back to an old fall.
Most of the pups hunted behind the long gun, some eventually figured it out, some did not.
Lily's trouble started at the line, she did not watch the long bird al the way to the ground. She is normally very good about that but the excitement of the event compounded by an idiot that triple staked her was just too much.
She got the short bird fine and I took plenty of time trying to pull her to the left before sending on the long bird. She drifted behind the gun but quickly hooked around and crossed the water and hunted behind the tules but not quite deep enough. She went back across and hunted by the gun again before returning and getting a few yards deeper and finding the bird.
This was a very good and challenging mark. We will get back over there some day soon whit the same wind and run it again.

Lily's green JAM ribbon in the Q last weekend was due to cheating water in the last series. She has no aversion to water but knows there is a faster route, "speed cheat" is how many describe it. The problem is it throws a dog off course and often results in a hunt on the mark. Also, taking the most direct routes is always preferred. I think we had a chance at blue or red coming into the 4th.
We worked on one cheaty water mark yesterday and will every day this week.
The mark yesterday was very black and white and ran as a single. The bird was thrown into the water along the far shore of a pond for a nice splash. The direct route was clearly through the pond. The fast route was clearly around it by land. Lily chose the faster route. I let her get halfway around the pond, stopped her with the whistle, then no no here with continuous collar pressure as she came back around the shore. In this case I brought her all the way back to the line and had the mark thrown again. The second time she chose wisely and took the wet route.
In some cases I will just call the dog back to the point where they deviated from the correct route, then stop and cast. Calling a dog back off a mark is pressure and the collar is obviously pressure. Calling a dog all the way back is more pressure than calling in part way and casting.
Lily has no issues with low drive or enthusiasm, quite the opposite. If that were not the case I might handle it differently.
The level of collar pressure to use in a situation like this is important. Lily did it correctly on the second send. I got the correct response, indicating that the correct amount of pressure was used. If she had chosen to run the shore again it would have indicated too little pressure was used and she thought it was worth it to try again.
Too much pressure will make a dog nervous on the line, not wanting to look out in the field, possibly no-go on the send, lose confidence.....
IMO, it is also important to call the dog back calmly, not angrily. We work on this in basic yard work, no-no drills. Lily was being a bit naughty but collar pressure and being called back in was plenty of pressure. Just a calm 'no-no here' was enough verbal. Nothing damages confidence and enthusiasm more than harsh verbal correction. Save that for the times they are really naughty.

SRW said:

Lily's green JAM ribbon in the Q last weekend was due to cheating water in the last series. She has no aversion to water but knows there is a faster route, "speed cheat" is how many describe it. The problem is it throws a dog off course and often results in a hunt on the mark. Also, taking the most direct routes is always preferred. I think we had a chance at blue or red coming into the 4th.
We worked on one cheaty water mark yesterday and will every day this week.
The mark yesterday was very black and white and ran as a single. The bird was thrown into the water along the far shore of a pond for a nice splash. The direct route was clearly through the pond. The fast route was clearly around it by land. Lily chose the faster route. I let her get halfway around the pond, stopped her with the whistle, then no no here with continuous collar pressure as she came back around the shore. In this case I brought her all the way back to the line and had the mark thrown again. The second time she chose wisely and took the wet route.
In some cases I will just call the dog back to the point where they deviated from the correct route, then stop and cast. Calling a dog back off a mark is pressure and the collar is obviously pressure. Calling a dog all the way back is more pressure than calling in part way and casting.
Lily has no issues with low drive or enthusiasm, quite the opposite. If that were not the case I might handle it differently.
The level of collar pressure to use in a situation like this is important. Lily did it correctly on the second send. I got the correct response, indicating that the correct amount of pressure was used. If she had chosen to run the shore again it would have indicated too little pressure was used and she thought it was worth it to try again.
Too much pressure will make a dog nervous on the line, not wanting to look out in the field, possibly no-go on the send, lose confidence.....
IMO, it is also important to call the dog back calmly, not angrily. We work on this in basic yard work, no-no drills. Lily was being a bit naughty but collar pressure and being called back in was plenty of pressure. Just a calm 'no-no here' was enough verbal. Nothing damages confidence and enthusiasm more than harsh verbal correction. Save that for the times they are really naughty.

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Thank you for the description. This is helpful. This is a battle I fight with Cruz, only on blinds. He's very specific about when he chooses to cheat. It's only at a test, only when the bird is around a nice sweeping rounded edge of a pond to the left. Unfortunately for me I ran two SH tests in a row with this exact setup last year. The bird was belly up, which made it nice for some people running the tests. He does much better on hard blinds, over points, etc. It's like the perfect storm of temptation for him. He knows he can get there faster, he always sees it, which some would love on a blind, but it completely messes up my day, and it's always the last bird of an otherwise perfect test. He takes my whistles, but not my cast over into the water in this scenario. He gets his feet wet, but only because he's running as fast as he can around the edge. Our weather is finally getting nice enough for me to start working on it. I'm going to have to go to a friends pond. He won't do it at home. My friend is a retired Pro and he swears we can fix it, but it's hard to believe you can fix something that a dog will not do unless he's in a test situation. I've done more swimby's then you would think is possible. If I can recreate it in a training situation maybe I can fix it. It's a very popular setup around here for a senior test. (ugh) He has no issue with confidence or enthusiasm. The only issue I've ever had with him is if I do too much blind work he will start to pop on blinds. I have to balance it.

4th series of the Am last weekend.
17 dogs called back
6 completed this test without being handled
I think 6 were handled and 5 had to be picked up. The short retired on the right was the most difficult mark for the majority of dogs. Some swung off to the flier and did not watch it.

Jake was near perfect in this test.

FTGoldens said:

So on R2 ... I presume most handlers tried to get it second ... did the dogs generally take too much water, which put them wide left when they got out of the water, then end up at R1 or get handled to R2?

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Yes, most handlers tried to select R2 second. Some dogs disagreed and went to R1 instead.
Several dogs head swung to the flier after R1 was thrown and did not see the R2 throw.
There were a few that got wide in the water going to R2 and either ended up at R1 or just split the difference, went deep and never recovered.
R2 was also a hen pheasant which added to the difficulty. There were dogs that cruised past and just didn't get a whiff of it. One of the dogs that got a JAM had an extended hunt right between the gun and the mark, just would not circle out a few more feet to the bird and was finally handled to it. Another dog popped when it winded the R2 gunner?
A couple had trouble with the long retired, hunted short.
It was an interesting test.

FTGoldens said:

Or did the dogs fall off the dam and end up too far to the right of R2, which put them upwind of the bird (I could also see some dogs checking down short when en route to R2 and decide to start hunting in the row of trees)? [That's a real skinny entry to get them to go straight on R2.]

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Oddly enough, only one dog did that, and it was the landowners.
I think that dog and the test dog were the only dogs to cheat water on R2.
I was going to run Lily as bye dog and wanted to see how she would handle that mark but the last handler picked up.