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She seems pretty adamant that this dog is a purebred black golden. I can't exactly remember for sure but I think she owns the mother to this dog and bred the litter. I'll have to go see if I can find her Facebook post refresh my memory. 馃槅
According to the website it looks like she owns both the sire (Farley - who's a super light dog from Serbia) and the dam (Gabby). What we probably really need here is AKC registration numbers (of dam, sire and most of all, the "Black Golden."). I'm curious to know if she registered the black dog, since, as I understand it, there is no option to register her if she isn't a shade of Gold...
 

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Lily
My very rare, short hair, midnight golden.
That's Rudolf's antler she is chewing on. He was a rare red nosed reindeer. The other reindeer bullied him mercilessly so I shot him last deer season, ending his misery.
View attachment 886107


No surprise.
I like what I'm reading here .....you should try to sell the movie rights......
 

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According to the website it looks like she owns both the sire (Farley - who's a super light dog from Serbia) and the dam (Gabby). What we probably really need here is AKC registration numbers (of dam, sire and most of all, the "Black Golden."). I'm curious to know if she registered the black dog, since, as I understand it, there is no option to register her if she isn't a shade of Gold...
The dog I posted the picture of is allegedly the sire whose name is Olof.
 

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Out of pure curiosity...

Is there any reason to believe that this person is truly misinformed? I tried looking up this dog on OFA, but nothing.
I would like to think they could be misinformed, but in Riley鈥檚 Mom鈥檚 screen shot they mention the American Kennel Club say this is the only Midnight Golden Retriever. A quick Google comes up with good explanations as to why purebred black golden retrievers can鈥檛 exist. To say the AKC recognise it? Massive red flags all over the place, unfortunately. Having had dealings with a couple scammers in our own puppy search nothing surprises me.
 

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If that Serbian dog is really the sire of other pups in the litter, then mom was visited by a mystical black dog probably at midnight. Show me the DNA or it鈥檚 not true.

On the cancer thing, that is an outright lie. There are zero Goldens alive with no cancer in their lines.
 

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If that Serbian dog is really the sire of other pups in the litter, then mom was visited by a mystical black dog probably at midnight. Show me the DNA or it鈥檚 not true.

On the cancer thing, that is an outright lie. There are zero Goldens alive with no cancer in their lines.
Probably at midnight LOL - good one 馃槀
 

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Since the dad is from Serbia I think that is where your nonsense comes from. Over there, they mix great pyrenes into goldens to get "white goldens" and probably other "similar" type dogs like Newfies etc. Also, a dear family member had a "black golden" which looked for all the world like a golden that was black, but it was well known that it was a result of a black lab mixed into the lines. Apparently it was the worlds best hunting dog though. Also, I've seen "black goldens" that resulted from flat coats being mixed in.
 

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I am just going to sort laugh right here about the claim that Black is recessive.
Big NOPE!
Black is dominant. Gold is recessive. It is why all purebred Goldens are various shade of Gold. They all have two recessive alleles.
 

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The dog I posted the picture of is allegedly the sire whose name is Olof.
Hmm. The website says:
鈥淏B is an incredibly rare all black fully Golden Retriever. Her Sire is Farley, a pure white male from Siberia. Her Dam is our Gabby. BB has not been bred yet since she is a little too young and we are looking for the perfect sire! We are not sure if she will produce black puppies...but we sure hope so! AKC does not recognize her color even though she is a purebred dog. We look forward to her first litter later this year.鈥

Either way鈥 I doubt that 鈥淏B鈥 (Black Beauty) is AKC registered.鈥
 

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Looks very like a Flatcoat head and expression to me! I have seen a golden Flatcoat cross which looked exactly like a UK bred working golden and was dark gold. Annef
 

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I鈥檓 a scientist working as a data analyst so my immediate response is 鈥渓et鈥檚 look at the evidence.鈥 The evidence says 鈥渘o鈥. All Golden Retrievers are ee at the MC1R gene, which makes them yellow, even if they carry alleles for dominant or recessive black at other genes. Even in species as divergent as sheep, alpacas and camels, studies have not found any allele recessive to ee which would cause black.
I found this paper which looks at non-standard recessive alleles in dog breeds and reports an amazing number of occurrences. Who knew individuals in so many breeds carry the gene for taillessness? But, like every other reference I found, this paper is clear on one thing: Golden Retrievers 鈥渁re uniformly fixed for an MC1R genotype of e/e鈥, which prevents the expression of dominant or recessive black. I鈥檝e removed the link to the paper because of its length, but here鈥檚 the citation:
Dreger DL, Hooser BN, Hughes AM, Ganesan B, Donner J, Anderson H, et al. (2019) True Colors: Commercially-acquired morphological genotypes reveal hidden allele variation among dog breeds, informing both trait ancestry and breed potential. PLoS ONE 14(10): e0223995. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0223995
 

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Interesting topic. Had quite a bit of laugh reading all that. 馃槃

Here's my point of view in this:
When the dog has all black coat, he/she is not a Golden Retriever, since GRs have yellow(ish)/golden coat. Hence the "Golden" part in the Golden Retriever.

Now, if you were to mix breed GR with something else and you'll end up with black coated dog, like the discussion in this topic goes, you can't call the dog Golden Retriever since the dog doesn't have golden coat. What you can call the dog, is Black Retriever or similar. Proper GR has to have golden coat, to be Golden Retriever.

My 2 cents.
 

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In the service dog world, black fluffies are sought after by some volunteers. If I take a 50-50 LGX and breed her to a 100% Golden. I'll get a puppy that is 25-75 LGX. The offspring can have a coat with the texture of a Golden's typical coat but be black. However, as the name says, the puppy is not a Lab and it's not a Golden, it's an LGX (Lab Golden cross.) These puppies never enter the general pet breeding population.

Strangers will often ask the puppy raisers of these puppies if they're a black Golden.
 

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In the service dog world, black fluffies are sought after by some volunteers. If I take a 50-50 LGX and breed her to a 100% Golden. I'll get a puppy that is 25-75 LGX. The offspring can have a coat with the texture of a Golden's typical coat but be black. However, as the name says, the puppy is not a Lab and it's not a Golden, it's an LGX (Lab Golden cross.) These puppies never enter the general pet breeding population.

Strangers will often ask the puppy raisers of these puppies if they're a black Golden.
What makes black desirable for them?
 

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What makes black desirable for them?
I can't answer for all, but as a 35+ year golden owner I can answer for a short period of my life. I had Goldens as a teenager and a hunter that came to our farm that had a "rare black Golden". I fell in love with this dog. I spent some time (back before the internet) trying to find a "rare black Golden". I had loved this dog and always thought it would be neat to have something you didn't see everyday. As I matured, and learned a little more, I realized his "rare black Golden" was probably a free Golden/Lab Cross. We are going back to early 80's on this for me.

I also have had horses my entire life. I spent many years wanting a perfect black and white crop out paint. This isn't something everyone would want, but I had wanted one since childhood. I wanted a solid black horse, white blaze, and four white socks. I ended up getting the opportunity to own exactly that. She was the perfect halter show horse, in the Golden world conformation. She turned out to be the roughest riding horse I ever owned, but I just loved her. It was all about that childhood idea of perfection.

I went through a period of life where I was surrounded by everyone else's idea of perfection. I'm the youngest in a family of three girls. I was always that kid that wanted perfect, but different. As we all know perfect doesn't exist, but I'm currently training my beautiful conformation boy to hunt test in an all lab training group, so maybe some things never change...lol

EDIT - Before this gets misinterpreted, I outgrew my desire for a "rare or different Golden" I spent last weekend parked next to someone that felt the need to explain to me why she owned a "rare miniature Golden". Best I can tell a Corgi/Golden cross (maybe???) I wanted to die!
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
What makes black desirable for them?
I cannot speak for others. But, I have a suspicion that my rationale is not too different from others.

Assuming "all things, otherwise, equivalent", it's the uniqueness. Everyone has a red or golden golden. But, how many of "mine" are there?

I once had a '65 Mustange (the car). Unlike most other Mustangs, it has a 60/40 split bench, vice bucket seats. It had a 6cyl, 200ci motor. But, unlike most other cars with a 6cyl, it had a 4sp manual transmission, power steering and brakes, and inside controlled external mirrors. That 4sp manual was so unique, when it came time to retire that '65, I sold it for more than I paid, as someone really wanted that transmission to finish a restoration they'd been working on for years.

So, the original motivation is a love for the basic model. The follow-on motivation is when you find something "unique", and decide that is worth having. In the case of that '65 Mustang, it wasn't Frankensteined, just a very unusual configuration (I have never run across another Mustang that didn't have buckets). Unfortunately, that is not the case for "black goldens" (or, for that matter, "minature goldens"). But, if folks don't know that all-important-fact, I can understand the desire. To be fair, I can even understand the desire in-spite-of knowing that all-important-fact; been there, almost did that.
 
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