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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
At the risk of stirring things up, is this even a genetic possibility at this-point-in-the-game? I found this dog on a local (to San Diego) breeder's website, advertised as a "rare black golden" which they are planning on breeding. I was just doing some research on "how to research a breeder's website", and ran across this.

I'm going to refrain from posting the breeder's name/website. In part, out of a desire not to "out" this breeder to the general public. Also, in part, because the dogs I was able to find on OFA didn't have the greatest of clearances.

For what it's worth, I also found some claims on their website that I found a bit hard to believe (either that, or I've found the Holy Grail of goldens)...

"...pups come from a genetically cancer-free lineage with great-grandparents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins and other relatives living up to 16 years old and beyond."
"...more than 150 puppies coming from <redacted> line, we are proud to have had NO long term illnesses or serious health issues from any of her litters!"

Thoughts?

Add Note: I'm not a "dog person", but my first though on seeing this picture was "small Newfoundland". Or, at least "some Newfoundland".

Water Dog Dog breed Azure Window
 

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TLDR: no, it’s not possible for a purebred Golden to be solid black.

Most Goldens are genetically black dogs, with what is called “recessive red” taking over at the E locus. All purebred Golden Retrievers are ee at the E locus, which prevents them from ever being phenotypically black. Goldens come in various shades due to the influence of other genes and it’s thought that the “I” locus - or intensity locus controls shading at least in part, but they (meaning researchers) don’t know much about the genes at the I locus yet.

The most common way to produce a dog like the one in the picture is to cross with either a black lab or a black flat coat.

However, Goldens can develop somatic mutations (not heritable) that cause black patches or stray black hairs, but the dog is never solid black and is usually still majority Gold.
 

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Question for those of you who know more about genetics than I do...

I know that it's considered impossible genetically for a purebred Golden Retriever to be black. I also know that on rare occasions, a purebred Golden will be born with a large black spot. In theory, would it be possible for a Golden to be born that basically has a GIANT black "spot" that covers its whole body? I know if this were even possible it would be a one in a million dog (and so ALL of those who are out there claiming they have purebred black Goldens need to run a DNA tests which will show them it's not true), but... is it even possible for a Golden to have a "full body spot"? Or is there something about the somatic mutation that will always confine the black pigment to a limited portion of the dog's coat?
 

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I have never seen a somatic mutation ever cross the midline.

I think for all intents and purposes Goldens can’t be black is as definitive a statement as can be made about genetics and heredity.

That dog owned by a less than stellar breed has less of a chance of being purebred than it does becoming an astronaut.
 

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I also found some claims on their website that I found a bit hard to believe (either that, or I've found the Holy Grail of goldens
Which ever you think it is, that is your answer.
 

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Re the cancer free/no health issues thing... I researched this breeder a few months ago and was able to track down (with fair certainty) the K9Data listing for "Treasure" (the foundation dam they claim is from "cancer free" lines - and which according to their site has produced 60 puppies!). As might be expected, there is precious little on K9Data (pet lines back several generations, with few to no clearances) but the one ancestor that had a COD died of Hemangio, and Treasure's sire has moderate hip dysplasia....

Oh, and they talk about their "pure white" dog who was the (claimed) sire of their "black" dog....
 

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There is a minimum of one thread similar to this every week, usually more.
Why is it that so many people desperately want to believe breeders that they know are lying?
 

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What makes you think that this is my motivation for making this post?
Not meaning to pick on you. This breeder is lying, I think you know that. Why even consider anything the breeder says?
 

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The owner of this dog is in one of the pet golden Facebook groups I am in. She refers to the dog as a rare "midnight" golden. She also claims that AKC acknowledged that black goldens exist. 🙄. She also claims to have done a DNA test done too but she doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. Lol
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
This breeder is lying, I think you know that. Why even consider anything the breeder says?
For what it's worth, I don't "know" that the breeder is lying. I try hard not to ascribe motivation/intent, as I find that "truth" is much more compelling. And, since I'm still learning, I question when I find things that seem a-bit-unusual. Sometimes, the information turns out to be incorrect. The reason is a bit secondary, unless I am specifically addressing "intent".

And, however infrequent it may be, there are times when, even when the core information is incorrect, I discover I learn something new. For me, the key is "discussion". At some point in time, there is an end to "discussion", and that's when I find other things to discuss. 😁
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
The owner of this dog is in one of the pet golden Facebook groups I am in. She refers to the dog as a rare "midnight" golden. She also claims that AKC acknowledged that black goldens exist. 🙄. She also claims to have done a DNA test done too but she doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. Lol
Out of pure curiosity...

Is there any reason to believe that this person is truly misinformed? I tried looking up this dog on OFA, but nothing.
 

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Out of pure curiosity...

Is there any reason to believe that this person is truly misinformed? I tried looking up this dog on OFA, but nothing.
Probably facts that there is no such thing as a black golden. To get a black dog, you have to breed to a black dog.

If somebody reported her to AKC - she would have to do a DNA test to prove that the dog's pedigree is what she claims it is.
 

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She refers to the dog as a rare "midnight" golden.
Lily
My very rare, short hair, midnight golden.
That's Rudolf's antler she is chewing on. He was a rare red nosed reindeer. The other reindeer bullied him mercilessly so I shot him last deer season, ending his misery.
Dog Carnivore Dog breed Working animal Companion dog


I tried looking up this dog on OFA, but nothing.
No surprise.
 

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Out of pure curiosity...

Is there any reason to believe that this person is truly misinformed? I tried looking up this dog on OFA, but nothing.
She seems pretty adamant that this dog is a purebred black golden. I can't exactly remember for sure but I think she owns the mother to this dog and bred the litter. I'll have to go see if I can find her Facebook post refresh my memory. 😆
 

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Ok I found the post. These are some of the owners comments as well as pictures of alleged parents.
 

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