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Importing a dog and standard practice question for those that specialize in Euro pedigrees -

1442 Views 36 Replies 13 Participants Last post by  annef
There's a breeder here in the states that has posted the following after he was questioned on why he is studding his dog out under 2 years old and I'm curious what thoughts you all have on this -

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Personally, I've had issues with this breeder for a long time for different reasons (breeding untitled dogs with incomplete or failed clearances). But I figured this topic would be a good one to ask those that regularly import semen and dogs from Europe and get their thoughts.

Pedigree: Lanlwyd Cepheus (dog in question)
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There's a breeder here in the states that has posted the following after he was questioned on why he is studding his dog out under 2 years old and I'm curious what thoughts you all have on this -





Personally, I've had issues with this breeder for a long time for different reasons (breeding untitled dogs with incomplete or failed clearances). But I figured this topic would be a good one to ask those that regularly...
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· Jamie
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
@HaliaGoldens @Emmdenn @LJack - If a dog is imported from Europe before 2, are European clearances sufficient? Or is it standard practice to follow the rules of the country the dog resides in? If a dog is over two when imported do people redo clearances here?

The import of field dogs is a relatively new trend but I know European imports on the show side are not new at all so figured I'd ask you three!
 

· Kate
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24,995 Posts
The dog is not 24 months. I mean, my head is tired after staring at numbers all day so I could be wrong, but fairly sure that the dogs hips/elbows are due to be done next month. If this person plans on studding him out or using for his own breeding purposes, he would essentially be breeding the dog on preliminary clearances.

If you check the pedigree on OFA - there are two full siblings from a prior litter (2020) who apparently were likewise imported and the owners in that case did OFA. One of those dogs the breeder entered information into K9Data for the dog, with BVA's done at a little over 1 year of age. The dog was apparently imported to the US, because I see elbows had been done at 24 months, but there's nothing else done or posted on OFA. Now I could assume that the new owner had decided to float the BVA hip clearance around vs checking, but why didn't they do that with elbows too, since BVA checks elbows? To me that suggests the dog failed hips.

I think the situation would be entirely different if he were a breeder and instead of importing a young dog for his kennel, etc... he was importing semen from a dog owned by a foreign breeder, to be used for a litter here. Or however that is handled. 🥴 One of my mentors had used a foreign dog (who lived in Sweden) for a litter back in the 90's or 2000's. I'm fairly sure she did not expect or require full clearances per GRCA on a CH dog owned and living in a foreign country - and nobody would or should dispute that.

This Jed fellow is not importing semen or somehow breeding one of his girlies to a foreign owned dog. He had essentially purchased a young dog from a breeder. The BVA should be viewed the same as prelims - meaning, it's a good sign and makes the acquisition slightly less risk than if he had purchased and imported a pup who is a complete unknown. But my opinion, rather than getting knotted up like a pretzel over highfallutin statements of respecting the mother country and doing as brits do because they are so so superior (it's the accents LOL), I personally would feel better just doing the finals if this were my dog.

Because this is a field dog and performance prospect (am assuming), it is better to see the xrays on your dog to confirm that this dog is not going to have thousands of dollars invested in him only to crap out in a few months due to symptoms of HD or ED, because the dog had issues to begin with and aggravated by hard training. From appearances, this Jed fellow has owned the dog since at least fall of last year and he had the opportunity to get a peep at hips and elbows. Since he's waited this long, might as well do the finals.

My opinion. Don't come for me. ;)
 

· Jamie
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Lol Kate, you and I are in agreement on this one. He already bred this dog underage to a bitch he owns, and another breeder (who I thought was reputable) bred to the dog as well. I figured most people that import dogs follow the rules here but honestly I only personally know people that imported semen, not a whole dog.

I questioned him on his posts and he gave me the run around with some condescension sprinkled in. Sadly he has a large following but I hope that people at least start looking at him deeper because of comments instead of taking him at face value.
 

· Registered
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Lol Kate, you and I are in agreement on this one. He already bred this dog underage to a bitch he owns, and another breeder (who I thought was reputable) bred to the dog as well. I figured most people that import dogs follow the rules here but honestly I only personally know people that imported semen, not a whole dog.

I questioned him on his posts and he gave me the run around with some condescension sprinkled in. Sadly he has a large following but I hope that people at least start looking at him deeper because of comments instead of taking him at face value.
Now he's insulted you saying "the Jamie's of the world" and he'd like to see your dogs work.
 

· Jamie
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Now he's insulted you saying "the Jamie's of the world" and he'd like to see your dogs work.
Yeah he loves to pose these scenarios to ponder to the people of his page but when someone knowledgeable actual questions his logic they are automatically seen as hostile. Little does he know, that was me being polite.
 

· Jamie
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I just went and creeped and this guy’s page… he’s just spewing a lot of crap. It’s not that hard to do the clearances. It’s really not.
Yeah it really is the bare minimum since he definitely doesn’t title his dogs either. Go check out his website, he charges $1100/month for field training even though he doesn’t do any field events himself. For comparison that’s what my very reputable field trial pro charges. Hunt test pros are usually cheaper than that.

I appreciate this forum, we may have some disagreements about some things but we all have a hardline about people cutting corners and misleading puppy buyers.
 

· Kate
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Stinks because a couple of his dogs are nice looking. Not all, but a couple at least. Spotty clearances, breeding underaged pups on prelims, + arrogant statements in defense of cutting corners are things that I could never forgive a breeder for though.

It's not just breeders like this. There's a conformation breeder who is one of breeders of record behind a big name dog who I will never forget him making very similar statements about breeding dogs based on PH results (from when they were puppies). Would not buy any pup with his dogs behind them. 🥴
 

· Jamie
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Stinks because a couple of his dogs are nice looking. Not all, but a couple at least. Spotty clearances, breeding underaged pups on prelims, + arrogant statements in defense of cutting corners are things that I could never forgive a breeder for though.
Agreed! He had potential, the field world absolutely needs diversity and some structure improvements. It really wouldn’t have taken much for him to have a big impact.
 

· Jamie
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
my question is that if they are using the age of one to get clearances done over seas aren't the bones still forming at this age?
That's a piece I was also curious about. If clearances are accepted after one years old, at what age do they actually breed these dogs? I can't imagine anyone thinking a male is fully mature then? They take forever to finish growing (or at least it feels like it).
 

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That's a piece I was also curious about. If clearances are accepted after one years old, at what age do they actually breed these dogs? I can't imagine anyone thinking a male is fully mature then? They take forever to finish growing (or at least it feels like it).
my thought process is that the bones still have some growing to do so how can they do accurate clearances that early?
 

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my thought process is that the bones still have some growing to do so how can they do accurate clearances that early?
I'm not 100% on this but I recall reading something that said they did a study of sorts where they did joints at 1 year and again at 2 and there were very little changes so they decided that 1 is fine? Anyone else remember seeing that?

Regardless I'm not sure how you could breed a dog at 1, because they are NOT finished growing so you can't see the "for sure" end result/structure of the animal, and they've had no time to really prove themselves in any venue. Less worrisome for a male in some ways I suppose, but a female that young is such a baby, I couldn't imagine!
 

· Registered
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I'm not 100% on this but I recall reading something that said they did a study of sorts where they did joints at 1 year and again at 2 and there were very little changes so they decided that 1 is fine? Anyone else remember seeing that?

Regardless I'm not sure how you could breed a dog at 1, because they are NOT finished growing so you can't see the "for sure" end result/structure of the animal, and they've had no time to really prove themselves in any venue. Less worrisome for a male in some ways I suppose, but a female that young is such a baby, I couldn't imagine!
That is a good question, not sure I have seen that study or heard of it.. Also, agree on that it is way too early to start breeding at 1. They still have growing to do as well as it is difficult to finish a dog at that age as well
 

· Super Moderator
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@HaliaGoldens @Emmdenn @LJack - If a dog is imported from Europe before 2, are European clearances sufficient? Or is it standard practice to follow the rules of the country the dog resides in? If a dog is over two when imported do people redo clearances here?

The import of field dogs is a relatively new trend but I know European imports on the show side are not new at all so figured I'd ask you three!
I have not imported a dog from overseas and don’t plan to. If I ever did the dog would be tested to our country’s standards. I am sure there are some who feel this way and others where it is more of a gray area.
 

· Jamie
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I have not imported a dog from overseas and don’t plan to. If I ever did the dog would be tested to our country’s standards. I am sure there are some who feel this way and others where it is more of a gray area.
Kind of what I figured how most here would feel, especially those that are members of the GRCA. Ignoring the underage issue which I think most of us agree on just based on the fact that a dog under two hasn't had time to prove itself. I would think most people that import a dog with hips/elbows done at a year old would still redo them here as finals for the simple fact that they'll get more interest in their male from reputable breeders if they do.

It's definitely a gray area for those that aren't a member of the GRCA though. If there was a program here that followed the standards of the UK for everything, I think I'd respect it. But the bouncing between US/UK standards that this breeder does to suit his priorities is the piece that doesn't sit well.
 

· Jamie
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I follow allowing in this FB page too. I almost unfollowed the other day after a few of the posts. I decided I’m better off to know what’s going on than to unfollow. Some of the questions he asks are thought provoking, but 🤦‍♀️
I disagree, he poses questions to further his own agenda not to actually provoke thought.
 
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