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I'm just curious about this. I just assumed a reputable breeder would avoid breeding 2 carriers. Was there a reason they would?
With field Goldens the gene pool of very talented dogs is small. Some will breed 2 carriers that have good health clearances otherwise and are accomplished trial dogs. The thinking is to breed out ICH in future generations.
The same thinking probably exists in conformation, obedience, etc....
Full disclosure if ICH status and all other health issues is the hallmark of a reputable breeder.

Others only care about money.
 

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With field Goldens the gene pool of very talented dogs is small. Some will breed 2 carriers that have good health clearances otherwise and are accomplished trial dogs. The thinking is to breed out ICH in future generations.
The same thinking probably exists in conformation, obedience, etc....
Full disclosure if ICH status and all other health issues is the hallmark of a reputable breeder.

Others only care about money.
I understand lack of talent in the dogs, but I wouldn't buy from a breeder that keep breeding carriers or affected dog to another such and just let other people later breed out the issue such as ICT. When does that thinking stop?
 

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Kate
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If a breeder has 2 carriers as the parents - I basically think that's a case where testing was done after the breeding. I do not know too many who had previously tested dogs, knew their bitch was a carrier, and they still chose to use a boy who was also a carrier.
 

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If a breeder has 2 carriers as the parents - I basically think that's a case where testing was done after the breeding. I do not know too many who had previously tested dogs, knew their bitch was a carrier, and they still chose to use a boy who was also a carrier.
It’s been different in the field world. It is more acceptable, or was, then I believe it is in other disciplines. I think current breeders are more selective, but some old performance breeders just didn’t think ICT was that big of a problem in Goldens. My own opinion is they are the ones from long ago that produced great dogs but didn’t stay on top of the changing requirements to be an “ethical breeder”. They worry about the 4 core requirements.
I will say I’m very proud of the current performance breeders for their response to NCL. I’m proud of the Golden community...
 

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I understand lack of talent in the dogs, but I wouldn't buy from a breeder that keep breeding carriers or affected dog to another such and just let other people later breed out the issue such as ICT. When does that thinking stop?
I wouldn't buy from a breeder that "just kept breeding carriers for others to later breed out" Golden retrievers with the talent to be competitive in all age stakes are rare. Hard charging Goldens with all age placements get noticed. An FC or AFC Golden that is a carrier or even affected may be bred to another talented carrier. Hopefully there will soon be plenty of talent to choose from so field breeders can get more selective.

If a breeder has 2 carriers as the parents - I basically think that's a case where testing was done after the breeding.
Breeding prior to testing for all health issues is irresponsible IMO.
 

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The excuse to breed dogs that are both carrier or affect to carrier because they are talented is still irresponsible in my opinion. Still wouldn't buy from a breeder (or consider them in the future) that chose to do this. A skin issue is not life changing to a dog like Hip/elbow issues or PRA for eye or NCL but it's still a hereditary problem and the more you just keep spreading those bad genes, the harder it will become to get non carriers and affecteds to "clean it up later". Not my idea of a breeder that is trying to better the breed, just trying to better their dogs in competition. Isn't it health before all else?

This goes back to the separation of show and field Goldens. They are still Goldens and the breed deserves better IMO.
 

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Eric I think the attitude actually has changed. Moe’s breeder bred carriers, but didn’t disclose that. He’s bred two litters since Moe. (One repeat breeding after knowing about Moe’s issues and a puppy with pituitary dwarfism out of Moe’s litter) I’m sure you can guess how I feel about that! I 100% agree that there is no excuse in breeding any health issue that is so easy to prevent. I also would say that there are some great field breeders out there that care about health, all aspects, and performance. My point was more that I think the Golden community is actually starting to align requirements more between performance and conformation then they use too. I’m sure there are extremes in both still, but overall I see great things. Maybe I’m looking in better places but I see a lot of quality litters these days.
 

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Both times I got ICT it was through frozen semen from long-dead dogs.. but there are enough good dogs out there I do not have to choose from carriers. That's my position, too, they're 'bettering the dog for competition' not health. BUT we do not know that is the case w the OP, just (like we always do!) further digging on a topic here (within the topic for educational reasons). With OP's case, we don't know when testing was done or why- or if the breeder was aiming for some amazing litter performance-wise or not. I could actually imagine that flakes showed up and before OP picked up pup results were back on sire and dam. I also imagine breeder owned both in that scenario, simply because it would take a couple weeks for results and hard to get test kits to a stud dog owner quickly.. Moe's breeder's astounding lack of responsibility still gets me every single time I think of there being (is it 3 repeats?) so many sibs on the ground due to repeating breedings that were problematic.
 

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Robin there are so many repeats I’ve lost track!! The last one was a few months ago and produced 2 puppies I think.
I found him because he was highly recommended by a field trainer for producing great athletes. Lesson learned! Versatility in the pedigree is where I’ll stay comfy from now on.
And I’ll do my own research....
 

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Kate
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Both times I got ICT it was through frozen semen from long-dead dogs.. but there are enough good dogs out there I do not have to choose from carriers.
Robin, the thing that occurs to me is that if breeders only keep bitches for breeding who are clear, that means they are not limited as to which studs they use. And you can do the tests pretty early.
 

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Breeding prior to testing for all health issues is irresponsible IMO.
That is not the same amount of irresponsibility and recklessness that goes with people knowing their dogs are carriers and knowingly breeding them to other carriers.
Seriously? Breeding two highly talented dogs healthy and sound in all respects with the exception of being carriers of a condition that is rarely more than an inconvenience. Then testing and disclosing the status of the pups is worse than breeding two dogs prior to obtaining all health clearances?
 

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Eric I think the attitude actually has changed. Moe’s breeder bred carriers, but didn’t disclose that. He’s bred two litters since Moe. (One repeat breeding after knowing about Moe’s issues and a puppy with pituitary dwarfism out of Moe’s litter) I’m sure you can guess how I feel about that! I 100% agree that there is no excuse in breeding any health issue that is so easy to prevent. I also would say that there are some great field breeders out there that care about health, all aspects, and performance. My point was more that I think the Golden community is actually starting to align requirements more between performance and conformation then they use too. I’m sure there are extremes in both still, but overall I see great things. Maybe I’m looking in better places but I see a lot of quality litters these days.
I must have misread. I thought SRW was saying that it's was currently happening.

My bad if I misinterpreted that. :D
 

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New puppy... hi all. We picked up a new puppy today... all very sudden and last minute from a breeder and discovered both parents are carriers of ichthyosis. The pup is 9 weeks. The breeder did not mention this to me- told me that they had all clearances and i believed her. (Bad move now I know). At pickup i asked for the clearance info and saw this. The pup looks perfect - I checked him thoroughly... but what do I do now? I’m super upset she misled me and now want to have him tested. She said we’d be able to see it at 9 weeks and his skin is perfect. Anyone here with a pup with this that can provide insight? My kids met him and are sooo excited (we brought him
Home). I just don’t know what to do!
call me I have a piece of advice for you I've been a ethical breeder of Golden retrievers for more than 30 years I'm very familiar with your situation
 

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I would really like to come on this forum and read about Golden Retriever related topics and escape the corona virus panic inducing speculation! Can't you find a more appropriate place to share your panic?
I was going to comment the same, I don't think the answer has anything to do with what is being asked. Can people talk about something else? You are trying to stay away from the panic and here we find something that completely causes panic and has nothing to do with what's being answer.
 

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this is what I know about this issue:

Ichthyosis leads to a skin disease. The first symptoms appear between 1 and 18 months by multiplying large dandruff visible on the back and belly. The skin looks dirty and scaly, and becomes dry, rough and with a hyper-pigmentation. Increased hygiene measures (special shampoos) should be considered to prevent infectious complications. The breeder or veterinarian can confuse Ichthyosis with the presence of parasites on the skin that may also be responsible for dandruff. More than 50% of Golden Retrievers are carriers of the genetic mutation responsible of Ichthyosis. A breeder can mate without noticing a male « carrier » and a female « carrier » and produce a litter containing affected puppies.
This is an interesting fact:
A dog « carrier » of the mutation will not develop the disease but transmits it to 50% of the puppies. A stallion « carrier » of the mutation which is used a lot for reproduction, spreads the disease through the breed and helps to increase the frequency of the mutation and multiply the number of affected dogs. I was told by the veterinarian dermatologist that in this case, a stud carried of the disease, will produce puppies with this condition.

A puppy can be affected if his two parents are carriers of the mutation. Breeders unaware of Ichthyosis can mate stud dogs and brood bitches carriers of the mutation and produce affected puppies which will not develop the disease before the age of 6 months.
A DNA test called ICT-A, can detect Ichthyosis of the Golden Retriever with a reliability above 99%

A breeder who knows the genetic status of the dog can select its breeding dogs, adapt mattings, avoid the birth of affected puppies and limit the spread of this skin disease in the breed. In other words, a breeder that has performed the test and was informed that both dogs have the mutation should NOT breed under any circumstances.

This was told also by the vet:
It is possible to manage the condition in affected dogs, but it requires great diligence on the part of owners. Your veterinarian will work with you to find what is most helpful for your dog. Treatment will include frequent mild anti-seborrheic shampoos and moisturizing rinses. Due to the chronic, severe, incurable nature of the skin changes and the intense treatment required, many owners choose to have dogs with ichthyosis euthanized. I had a dog that had this condition and thankfully it was mild and with a lot of consistency and using the right stuff, it never got out of hand. He lived a normal life, but in my opinion, a dog should never go tough that, if a breeder knows both dogs, even one is a carrier, don't breed. People like us trying to get a dog, putting all our faith in "a good breeder" are the only ones paying the price. Is hard, is time consuming, is expensive, and we already paid a significant amount of money for the puppy.
 

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This was told also by the vet:
It is possible to manage the condition in affected dogs, but it requires great diligence on the part of owners. Your veterinarian will work with you to find what is most helpful for your dog. Treatment will include frequent mild anti-seborrheic shampoos and moisturizing rinses. Due to the chronic, severe, incurable nature of the skin changes and the intense treatment required, many owners choose to have dogs with ichthyosis euthanized. I had a dog that had this condition and thankfully it was mild and with a lot of consistency and using the right stuff, it never got out of hand. He lived a normal life, but in my opinion, a dog should never go tough that, if a breeder knows both dogs, even one is a carrier, don't breed. People like us trying to get a dog, putting all our faith in "a good breeder" are the only ones paying the price. Is hard, is time consuming, is expensive, and we already paid a significant amount of money for the puppy.
If my vet told me that "many owners choose to have dogs with ichthyosis euthanized" I would be looking for a new vet. In SOME breeds it is a bigger problem. It is typically a nuisance in a Golden. As I stated earlier in this thread I have a 2 year old with it and have had 2 flare ups in 2 years that were no more then dandruff. A good omega supplement in the diet and a little extra vacuuming is NOT EVER something that I feel an ethical vet would consider euthanizing a dog for.
 
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